November 1st, 2011

Greeks Get €uro Referendum

The Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou has announced that he will put the €uro bailout deal struck last week to the people. There is palpable apoplexy within the EU’s political elite at this democratic outrage. Actually consulting the people in January about what they want…

Papandreou said:

“Citizens are the source of our strength and citizens will be called on to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to the agreement. It is not for others to decide but the Greek people to decide … we have faith in the people. We believe in democratic participation. We are not afraid of it. The people will be asked whether they want to adopt or reject the deal. This vote of confidence will be a foundation stone on which we will build a new structure, a new Greece.”

It seems, unlike our government, the Greek government does not have problem renegotiating the terms of its relationship with the EU in the midst of a crisis if the people will it. The second e-petition to parliament for a referendum has at pixel time 11,731 signatures…


197 Comments

  1. 1
    boulay says:

    good on him.

    hopefully it will encourage other Eurozone countries to say, “bugger this, we want out too before we are wrecked. let’s have a trade only EU….” but then i have always been a wild optimist….

    Like

    • 5
      Spartacus says:

      We could call it the Common Market

      Like

      • 6
        Up sh1t creek says:

        The only thing in common is we’re all sinking to keep the great European ponzi scheme going.

        Like

        • 28

          Surely the question on the ballot paper, even if not expressly stated thus, will be:

          Do the Greek people agree with retiring at age 57, if in public service, and handing the cost of this to the Germans who have more money because they have prudently raised their retirement age to 67, or not?

          No brainer, I would have thought. It’ll pass easily – in Greece.

          Like

          • Tony Bliar the champagne socialist says:

            Retire at 57………..I’ll vote for that…….

            Like

          • L.Fox says:

            Beware of fat boys baring cocks.

            Like

          • Bishop of London (twinned with T el A viv) says:

            Kill them all! Let G_d decide!

            Like

          • zorba the geek says:

            Too much Ouzo and dancing on broken plates- Of course we need to retire at 57

            Like

          • puppet Dave says:

            I want to be in Damascus by the holiday season, sorry, Xmas, and Teheran by Passover, sorry, by when we celebrate the murder of the fake prophet!

            Like

          • Deutsche Banker says:

            Zis iz vot ve alvayz vonted. A Eurozon viv just ze strong economies! Vel don Zorba!

            Like

          • The Apothecary says:

            Sounds like a great idea puppet Dave. Democracy and freedom in Damascus and Teheran. Shall we pull your strings?

            Like

          • Osama the Nazarene says:

            Cheap holidays in Greece next summer, outside Euroland! Bliss!

            Like

          • Aunt Mat says:

            Finally worked it out.

            The Greek public have not borrowed all that much.

            The Greek Leaders borrowed the money and the bailout cash and put it in a hedge fund. They are betting that Greece will leave the Euro-zone and default.

            They stand to make gazillions and we will be paying for it for many decades.

            Like

    • 38
      Bled White Taxpayer says:

      Looks like Greek opinion polls are now going to be required reading. I have no idea at all whether the Greeks will vote for EU bondage at half their debts or national freedom and total default with all of the implications on the rest of us. I don’t know whether it’s going to be fun to watch and hope the EU crashes down, or whether to be fearful that this is going to be armageddon.

      Like

      • 48
        Greek Tragedy says:

        I’ll make sure that I surprise you at the end with some improbable twist.

        Like

        • 103
          Polly Seewonk says:

          Greece invades Germany?

          Just joking.

          But seriously, those Greeks really don’t like the Germans, do they? The thinking behind the Greek referendum is to stick it to Germany (and its lapdog, France) by:
          1 – show democracy (stick it to EU in general)
          2 – keep them waiting on the Greeks (ha ha – take that efficient Germany!)
          3 – encourage a better deal from EU to swing the referendum
          4 – hope that Italy goes spectacularly down the pan so the Greek problem won’t seem so bad.

          Like

          • Winston Shalom Churchill says:

            Germans invading!? Right me and the Royals are fucking off to Canada, toute suite. That bollocks ’bout fighting on the beaches shit was only for the spaz Brits, so they’d slaughter their cousin krauts.

            Like

          • Peter Carter-Fuck says:

            The Hun stole $95 billion of gold from Greece during the war. Payback time Fritz.

            Like

    • 62
      Engineer says:

      Listening to the coverage of this on the Toady programme, the one word I didn’t hear at all was ‘democracy’. Tells you all you need to know about the EU and the BBC’s craven worship of it.

      Like

    • 81
      M says:

      Is this the start of the European spring !

      Like

  2. 2
    Spartacus says:

    +1

    Like

  3. 3
    Octavius Tinsworth Ace says:

    The result will be “No” = 60%, “Yes” = 70% – the yes side will borrow some extra votes from the Germans.

    Like

    • 7
      Emperor van Rumboy says:

      If the Greeks give us the ‘wrong’ answer, they will simply have to vote again until they get it right.

      Like

      • 21
        Handycock (Teen Fondler) says:

        Well said Emperor. We politicians know what is best for the people and referenda are just a waste of money. Now have you thought anymore about my proposition to let Russia in to the EU?

        Like

        • 65
          Vladimir Putin says:

          Russia doesn’t want to be in the EU. The EU is run by antediluvian Marxists. We may be run by murderous gangsters but we don’t want to turn back the clock to Marxism

          Like

          • Handycock (Teen Fondler) says:

            Sorry Vlad just trying to help. Be in Moscow soon on expenses, assuming usual entertainment will be provided.

            Like

      • 23
        G Eagle Eaq says:

        .
        Why not get Labour’s Mr Alexander to compose the Greek Ballot paper

        …. and then most Ballots will be disregarded, because so many Greeks won’t be unable to understand how to complete them

        Like

      • 59
        Seamus O'Shaunessy says:

        Jaysus, t’will be a vote for jobs, jobs, jobs begorrah!

        Like

      • 186
        Polly Seewonk says:

        No need to re-run the referendum, just change the question and then count the very same votes over again.

        Like

  4. 4
    Up sh1t creek says:

    Bye Bye European Commie project.

    Like

    • 121
      no sense at all says:

      why does Carswell want to continue the free movement of people within the EU?

      Like

    • 172
      Anonymous says:

      Did I just sit and agree with everything a politician said for 10 minutes solid?

      This man for PM.

      Like

      • 181
        Polly Seewonk says:

        No need to over-react, there are quite a few decent politicians who would be better as PM than CallMeDave (or Cleggover or Millibrain); it’s just that you never get to hear them speak more than two sentences before they’re interrupted by the Beeb/Ch4 churnalists who don’t want to broadcast anything they regard as off-message, especially if it’s interesting and coherent – why confuse the proles?

        This interview was on RT.

        Like

  5. 8
    Mike hunt says:

    Governments only call referenda when they know the answer.

    Like

  6. 9
    Popeye says:

    Unfortunately the majority of the political class here are a bunch of gutless no-hopers who wish to maintain the status-quo for their own selfish ends.
    Long live Greece but their assets should be sequestered if they can’t pay their debts in full.

    Like

  7. 10
    frog says:

    It’s all greek to me

    Like

  8. 12
    rotten cripple says:

    Good show, lets hope its contagious and the rest of Europe begins to follow democracy.

    Pigs are fueled and on the runway…

    Like

  9. 13
    Lord Lavender er Al. says:

    Oh…Shine up your bollocks with Barroso. He’s only €12.00 a tin. You can buy him or nick him from Kaufhof, but I doubt that they let folk like us in.

    Like

  10. 14
    Ctesibius says:

    So what happens if the Greeks say ‘no’. Does Greece leave the euro, convert to a new Drachma and devalue?

    Like

  11. 15
    Thom says:

    Fuck yeah!

    Like

  12. 16
    Lady Virginia Droit de Seigneur says:

    It is hard to see where things go from here. At the present moment time is a very precious commodity indeed and just the fact that the referendum will be held in January is very damaging in itself. It gives plenty of time for the smokescreen being thrown up by Berlusconi to disappear and markets are taking a very hard look at Italy’s position. If Italy is dragged further into this then the Euro won’t survive and there will be very severe repercussionsfor the EU itself.

    The crisis is toppling government after government in the EU. Jose Socrates resigned in Portugal after parliament rejected his austerity package and the bailout vote knocked over the government in Slovakia. Zapatero in Spain is odds on to be out of office later this month largely due to disgruntlement with his own austerity measures. Berlusconi has become even more of a joke than usual – he’s losing support from Bossi and the Northern League and seems at the mercy of events. Sarkozy is up for re-election next year and appears to have pinned his diminishing hopes of returning to office on maintaining France’s AAA rating and conjuring up a bailout paid for by someone else other than French banks. Daily events in the financial press show this to be an increasingly forlorn hope.

    I think it is quite possible that events will overtake the Greek referendum and it will never be held (and maybe Papandreou is planning on this).

    Like

    • 78
      Engineer says:

      There seems to be growing realisation that the Euro must change if it is to survive, or that it might collapse altogether. Arguably, the sooner one of these happens, the less damage will occur to national economies and the global economy.

      However, as far as the Greeks are concerned, their living standards will be badly affected whatever happens. Given that they have had no say in all the events so far, it could be that Papandreyou wants the people to select which of the unpalatable options they are willing to accept. If that democratic decision does not accord with the wishes of the EU elites, so be it. Maybe they should consider seeking democratic mandates of their own before their ‘leadership’ enrages ordinary people too much.

      Whatever happens, things are going to be economically tough in Europe and elsewhere for some time. Better to accept reality and get on with it than to throw good money after bad chasing the impossible.

      Like

      • 104
        Lady Virginia Droit de Seigneur says:

        Correct – there is no easy or pleasant way out of this particlarly in the short term. those who seek to deny reality are merely prolonging and deepening the pain for the vast majority of EU citizens.

        Whilst I have no sympathy for corrupt or profligate governments it seems to me that some countries ( Germany and China in particular) seem to fail to grasp that running continual large surpluses has a reverse side – countries with continual deificits. Creating economically artifical conditions – in Europe’s case the Euro – in Chna’s case the peg of the renminbi to the US dollar exacerbates these problems and, if not addressed perpetuates them to the point of economic ruin for the deficit countries ( as we are seeing in Greece).

        Do Merkel and Hu Jintao think that if Germany and China continue to run massive trade surpluses the world economy will correct itself? Just as the debt junkie countries (including Britain and the US) have an obligation to address their fiscal issues so to do the surplus countries have responsibilities as well. China needs to float the renminbi properly and allow the currency to further appreciate against the dollar. Germany’s position is more complex – encouraging domestic consumption will help but the Euro remains a central issue. Historically countries like Italy, Spain and Greece have remained competitive by ongoing devaluation (and become attractive low-cost tourist destinations) but this option is no longer open to them. The problem is aggravated by the fact that the ECB interest rate policy has been heavily weighted in favour of German requirements with the result that the Euribor rate was several points below what was required in places like Italy, Spain and Ireland. This encouraged rampant private sector borrowing in Ireland and Spain with a resultant property boom that is still working its way through the system. It also allowed profligate governments in Italy and Greece to borrow at artificially low costs and hence ramp up state borrowing without enacting necessary fiscal and regulatry reforms.

        The global problem won’t be fixed until all the components are addressed – right now we appear to be addressing excess government borrowing without looking much at anything else.

        Like

        • 144
          Ivor Tapeworm says:

          The powers-that-be just haven’t thought the bailout through – it’s like a chess player thinking no further than the next move.

          If Greece is bailed out, the 50% ‘voluntary’ haircut is either seen for what it is – a default – or else banks CDS will not kick in, the CDS system will lose crediility, and also all the other PIIGS will want the same treatment – and it’s starting already.

          The Euro is dead. All that is going on is the banks and their puppets shifting the liability onto taxpayers.

          Like

  13. 17
    Anonymous says:

    Bet that made the day of José Manuel Durão Barroso.

    Like

  14. 18
    The Man says:

    Like

    • 83
      Examiner says:

      Nigel, you and your bunch of wrinkly red faced losers are no answer to anything, except the odd wet dream in shadow cabinet circles perhaps.

      Like

      • 139
        jabbathecat says:

        +1

        Like

      • 156
        Examine This says:

        • Bolton West: Labour 18,329; Conservative 18,235; UKIP 1,901
        • Derby North: Labour 14,896; Conservative 14,283; UKIP 829
        • Derbyshire NE: Labour 17,948: Conservative 15,503; UKIP 2,636
        • Dorset mid & Poole: Labour 21,100; Conservative 20,831; UKIP 2,109
        • Dudley North: Labour 14,923; Conservative 14,274; UKIP 3,267
        • Great Grimsby: Labour 10,777: Conservative 10,063: UKIP 2,043
        • Hampstead & Kilburn: Labour 17,332; Conservative 17,290; UKIP 408
        • Middlesbrough South: Labour 18,138; Conservative 16,461; UKIP 1,881
        • Morley (Ed Balls): Labour 18,365; Conservatives 17,264; UKIP 1,506
        • Newcastle-Under-Lyme: Labour 16,393; Conservatives 14,841; UKIP 3,491
        • Plymouth Moor View: Labour 15,433; Conservatives 13,845; UKIP 3,188
        • Solihull: Liberal 23,635; Conservatives 23,460; UKIP 1,200
        • Somerton & Frome: Liberal 28,793; Conservatives 26,976; UKIP 1,932
        • Southampton Itchen: Labour 16,326; Conservatives 16,134; UKIP 1,928
        • St Austell & Newquay: Liberal 20,189; Conservatives 18,877; UKIP 1,757
        • St Ives: Liberal 19,619; Conservatives 17,900; UKIP 2,560
        • Telford: Labour 15,977; Conservatives 14,996; UKIP 2,428
        • Walsall North: Labour 13,385; Conservatives 12,395; UKIP 1,737
        • Walsall South: Labour 16,211; Conservatives 14,456; UKIP 3,449
        • Wells: Liberal 24,560; Conservatives 23,760; UKIP 1,711
        • Wirral South: Labour 16,276; Conservatives 15,745; UKIP 1,274

        Like

        • 182
          jabbathecat says:

          Here is UKIP’s share of the vote in your list with the electorate not exactly falling over themselves to back Farage.

          • Bolton West: Labour 18,329; Conservative 18,235; UKIP 1,901=4.9%
          • Derby North: Labour 14,896; Conservative 14,283; UKIP 829=2.7%
          • Derbyshire NE: Labour 17,948: Conservative 15,503; UKIP 2,636=7.2%
          • Dorset mid & Poole: Labour 21,100; Conservative 20,831; UKIP 2,109=4.7%
          • Dudley North: Labour 14,923; Conservative 14,274; UKIP 3,267=9.9%
          • Great Grimsby: Labour 10,777: Conservative 10,063: UKIP 2,043=8.8%
          • Hampstead & Kilburn: Labour 17,332; Conservative 17,290; UKIP 408=1.2%
          • Middlesbrough South: Labour 18,138; Conservative 16,461; UKIP 1,881=5.2%
          • Morley (Ed Balls): Labour 18,365; Conservatives 17,264; UKIP 1,506=4.0%
          • Newcastle-Under-Lyme: Labour 16,393; Conservatives 14,841; UKIP 3,491=10.1%
          • Plymouth Moor View: Labour 15,433; Conservatives 13,845; UKIP 3,188=9.6%
          • Solihull: Liberal 23,635; Conservatives 23,460; UKIP 1,200=2.5%
          • Somerton & Frome: Liberal 28,793; Conservatives 26,976; UKIP 1,932=3.3%
          • Southampton Itchen: Labour 16,326; Conservatives 16,134; UKIP 1,928=5.5%
          • St Austell & Newquay: Liberal 20,189; Conservatives 18,877; UKIP 1,757=4.2%
          • St Ives: Liberal 19,619; Conservatives 17,900; UKIP 2,560=6.2%
          • Telford: Labour 15,977; Conservatives 14,996; UKIP 2,428=7.5%
          • Walsall North: Labour 13,385; Conservatives 12,395; UKIP 1,737=6.2%
          • Walsall South: Labour 16,211; Conservatives 14,456; UKIP 3,449=5.2%
          • Wells: Liberal 24,560; Conservatives 23,760; UKIP 1,711=3.4%
          • Wirral South: Labour 16,276; Conservatives 15,745; UKIP 1,274=3.9%

          Like

          • Kenneth Chegwin says:

            You really don’t get it do you. UKIP voters are natural Conservatives & could have given the Tories a clear overall majority with no need for the Libs.

            Like

  15. 19
    You got more mouth than a cows got cunt says:

    The answer will be ‘no and fuck off with your euros’ then Spain, Italy and the paddies will do the same!!

    Like

    • 29
      sockpuppet #4 says:

      How long do you think it would take the new drachma to half in value?
      weeks? months? I suppose it takes years for that to feed through into the costs of everything else they want to buy.

      They would be voting for a populist socialist nightmare.

      Like

      • 61
        Real Estate Cult says:

        They’ve been doing that for years – bloated public sector, massive budget deficits……

        Like

      • 116
        Maximus says:

        To answer your question, mere hours. The feed-through you can reckon in days. Nightmare guaranteed, probably lasting up to 5 years, depending on the policies, and who gets to make them. The bougeoisie will be parted from much of its discrete charm, the peasants will continue to be revolting. Then things will improve. c.f Argentina.

        Like

      • 138
        W.W. says:

        “How long do you think it would take the new drachma to half in value?
        weeks? months?”

        Within a minute of the markets opening?

        W.W.

        Like

        • 167
          Shire Tory says:

          Better wait before I book two weeks in Crete next summer. Currency to take with me? Swiss Francs!

          Like

          • W.W. says:

            I would probably avoid the place for a while.

            Ths s**t will still be flyng, and you know how tetchy the meditranians can get.

            When you do go, I would have though 6 swiss francs would be enough to cover a good holiday.

            W.W.

            Like

          • The Cabinet Secretary says:

            The best thing to take to Greece is 10 grams of Amoxicillin.

            Like

      • 173
        The Other Bloke says:

        My first real job was with Sony. The Yen was 812 to the Pound sterling. Yes, under socialist governments Micky MOuse currencies can devalue very quickly.

        Like

  16. 20
    Dick the Prick says:

    Saved by the Greeks eh? Whodda thunk it? Good lads, good lads.

    Like

  17. 22
    Well it's a thought says:

    Drip drip drip, are you watching rusty, we are.

    Like

  18. 24
    Anonymous says:

    I do wonder if Guido would be so supportive of a referendum over an issue that could collapse economies if it had nothing to do with the EU.

    I suspect not.

    Like

    • 41
      Well it's a thought says:

      The economies are not exactly full speed ahead in the EU as it is, it’s time to sort ourselves out and look towards something the politcians didn’t want to know about , the Commonwealth.

      Like

      • 54
        nell says:

        +10

        Like

      • 69
        Kam the Man says:

        + 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

        Like

      • 105
        Ah! Monika says:

        Australians probably don’t even know the Euro exists.

        Like

      • 140
        jabbathecat says:

        “…look towards something the politcians didn’t want to know about , the Commonwealth.”

        Ah, the great Commonwealth that produces exactly what besides sheep and sheep and tsetse flies? It does however contain some of the most corrupt third world politicians around that make even Bliars mates look totally honest.

        Like

        • 145
          The Piss Soaked Tramp Formally Known As TAT! says:

          Hmm Canada seems to be doing alright…..

          Like

        • 146
          Audemus Dicere says:

          “Ah, the great Commonwealth that produces exactly what besides sheep and sheep and tsetse flies?”

          jabba – it may have escaped your attention but the Commonwealth, even if you just look at Australia and Canada as examples, produces a vast proportion of the world’s mineral wealth: iron ore, coal, bauxite, nickel, uranium, titanium, manganese, silver, gold, mineral sands, oil, natural gas. On top of that you have vast amounts of food and animal products in the form of fish, beef, lamb, wheat, barley, canola, wool, cotton, sugar, milk, fruit and vegetables of all descriptions.

          Seems to me that the Commonwealth is sitting on far more useful productive capacity than the EU could ever hope to emulate. The majority of the Commonwealth shares a common language, political system, legal system and respect for the rule of law. Trouble is that many people in countries such as Australia have quite rightly never forgiven Britain for disgracefully turning its back on the Commonwealth and its shared heritage when the traitor Heath committed his act of treason by taking the UK into the Common Market.

          Like

          • Spartacus says:

            A Definite +1

            Like

          • Shire Tory says:

            But what will I do for Kalamata Extra Virgin olive oil?

            Like

          • jabbathecat says:

            Yeah, but they don’t make BMW’s, Mercs and VW’s.

            As for all the minerals and base materials, what are we going to do with them, scrub toilets? In case you haven’t noticed manufacturing in this country is minuscule and shrinking. I won’t even go into the great British worker and the cost of employing them.

            Like

          • Socialism is a mental illness says:

            Quite, dig the bastard up and put his head[skull] on a spike, and yell, ‘Behold, the ‘ead orf a traytaaaaa’ or words to that effect.

            Like

        • 180
          Cat says:

          The greatest mineral wealth in the world! Western Australia is booming exporting to the Chinese, as are many African states.

          Like

          • HenryV says:

            My uncle lives in Perth WA. He suggests I go over and grab a job labouring in one of the mines. Apparently these labourers are on over £50k a year. Just not enough bods to do the work.

            Like

  19. 25
    Dave is a Twat says:

    Has Dave not sussed the stupidity of what he says?

    Europe is our major trading partner, we can not afford to see the Euro fail.

    Dave then the solution is for Europe NOT to be our major trading partner, then it would not matter a tinker’s curse when the Euro fails.

    Like

    • 34
      sockpuppet #4 says:

      How do you do that then? Make laws to force people not to sell stuff to the french?

      Whatever you want to do, one can’t get away from the fact that these countries aren’t very far away.

      Like

      • 51
        nell says:

        Yes precisely and since the eu exports 40% of it’s stuff to us – does anybody really think , if we choose to come out or renegotiate that the rest of the eu is going to chop of its nose to spite its face and stop exporting to us or stop us exporting to them?

        Like

      • 56
        Get thee behind me. says:

        No you stupid socialist moron. Disolve the Authoritarian laws coming out of Brussels and if China is prepared to buy bent cucumbers then sell them bent cucumbers rather than throwing them away.

        The EUSSR project is an evil socialist project. No more no less.

        Like

        • 73
          sockpuppet #4 says:

          Wow. wierd insults.
          In what way is it socialist to point out that france isn’t very far away?

          How do you get these bent cucumbers to China by the way?

          Like

      • 84
        I only asked says:

        Anything shipped to e.g. Rotterdam is counted as trade with the EU, irrespective of where in the world it is intended for after it is transshipped there.

        And isn’t the balance of trade with the EU (negative in our case) as significant as the volume of trade?

        Like

    • 70
      Archer Karcher says:

      Camerons statement makes no sense.

      Do we trade with the EU or individual countries within the EU? We have traded with those same countries without the Euro in the past, there is no reason not to trade with them in future, whether the Euro existed or not. The free trade area will still exist with or without the Euro.

      Like

    • 112
      Mark Austin says:

      Europe is our major trading partner

      No, it’s not. We trade about a third each with the EU, the US and the rest of the world. The figure of 50% to the EU is exaggerated by a number of technical factors, principally if a UK company ships a container to Rotterdam of Amsterdam for transhipment to a third country, this counts as an export to Holland, despite having sat on the dock only long enough for the transfer. There are a number of other such reasons that inflate trade to the EU as well, but this is the biggest factor.

      Like

  20. 26
    Blackacre says:

    That’s a waste of money then. Like the AV referendum.

    Like

  21. 30
    misterned. says:

    I have signed the petition. If the EU can ask the same question over and over again until they get the answer they want, so can we.

    When it comes to the Greek referendum I reckon that the fix must be in already. It will be rigged.

    Like

  22. 31
    Lord Grytpype-thynne says:

    I agree with the learned comments above but must say that Greeks has no apostrophe.Guido, you are guilty of an abuse of English usage

    Like

  23. 33
    Greece, the Country that invented Democracy and the Olympic games says:

    The term comes from the word Greek: δημοκρατία – (dēmokratía) “rule of the people”

    Like

  24. 37
    I don't need no doctor says:

    The euro has passed it’s sell by date. Long live the £ sterling.

    Like

  25. 39
    The Golem says:

    Putting aside the short-sighted way the Greeks got themselves into this situation for all the usual politicians’ reasons, there’s nothing like a bunch of arrogant, hectoring foreigners lecturing your own people in their own offices to the effect that they will have to do this, that and the other or else, to engender a change of heart.

    Of course, they’re pretty close to having to shoot people in the streets by now but still, it will be interesting to see how long the resolve lasts.

    Like

  26. 40
    Give us our referendum Mr Cameron says:

    Greek decision puts an end to “Dave’s” argument for not holding UK referendum because it is not the right time…..it is…..as Greece is obviously going to exit the Euro which will require a treaty change which the UK must agree to….if the Greek people can vote on the situation so can the British

    https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20133

    Like

    • 45
      nell says:

      Yes indeed. And when Greece exits italy will fall , it’s already tottering on the brink.

      Dave’s argument for not giving us the referendum we wanted now sits in ashes and he’s looking rather silly.

      mind militwit who wants to take us into the euro and cleggie who wants to bury us deeper in the euro are looking sillier

      Like

      • 75
        6EQUJ5 says:

        117
        6EQUJ5 says:
        October 31, 2011 at 8:30 pm

        @nell. I replied to your comment on last night’s thread but it was modded.

        This is a supreme act of democracy and of patriotism for the people to make their own decision….we have a duty to promote the role and the responsibility of the citizen.”

        This is a ‘Heads I win, Tails you lose’ statement by Papandreou. If the people vote to reject the Euro package they are immediately bankrupt, will probably have to leave the Euro and go back to a devalued almost worthless Drachma.

        If they accept the Euro package they will suffer severe austerity until 2020 that will see the Greeks in the same position as they were in 2010.

        Papandreou is just washing his hands of this catastrophic problem and still remain in power.

        Like

        • 77
          6EQUJ5 says:

          nell.

          I replied to you on last nights thread and it was modded, tried again just now with the same result.
          117 @ 8.30

          Like

          • nell says:

            Here it is sweetie – not that I agree with the analysis – the eu and the euro are slowly collapsing a bit like the argument for agw – and we shall all get along just fine, just as we always have, when they’re finally gone. I’m just hping it happens in my lifetime.

            by the by you were automodded for the word b@ nk r+ pt.

            @nell

            This is a supreme act of democracy and of patriotism for the people to make their own decision….we have a duty to promote the role and the responsibility of the citizen.”

            This is a ‘Heads I win, Tails you lose’ statement by Papandreou. If the people vote to reject the Euro package they are immediately b@ nkr* pt, will probably have to leave the Euro and go back to a devalued almost worthless Drachma.

            If they accept the Euro package they will suffer severe austerity until 2020 that will see the Greeks in the same position as they were in 2010.

            Papandreou is just washing his hands of this catastrophic problem and still remain in power.

            Like

          • Cynical-old-bag says:

            Papandreou only has another year or so, I believe, so if he can limp through until the next election, he can step down and keep his reputation intact.

            Like

  27. 47
    Sir Keith Josephs preserved head says:

    What a crook what nation of of crooks!
    They’ll vote NO and then papandreou will come back and say
    “well what can I do? You gotta give us more!”

    The greeks are mugging the rest of europe

    Like

    • 117
      Cynical-old-bag says:

      I know quite a few greeks who are appalled at the situation their contry is in – for all the right reasons! The geeek people I know are hard-working, honest and very hospitable.

      Like

      • 128
        Nelson's Eye says:

        It’s just that they don’t like paying taxes and working till they are 65!

        Like

        • 132
          Cynical-old-bag says:

          Some of them don’t, I agree. But if you look at their parliament who haven’t made any effort to cut back on anything, it’s no small wonder people are rioting in the streets.

          At least the people don’t just lie down and let their government walk all over them without asking any questions – like we do. :0)

          Like

        • 176
          The Cabinet Secretary says:

          The, “..’til they are 65″ is otiose.

          Like

      • 159
        Shire Tory says:

        +1

        Like

  28. 49
    Pissed off voter says:

    I wonder what Mr. Clegg is having for breakfast this fine day.

    Like

  29. 50
    decafT says:

    A referendum?

    Hitler must be turning in his grave

    Like

  30. 52
    genghiz the kahn says:

    looks like the politicians are trying to evade responsibility – it is the Greek voters’ default innit.

    One of the Greek papers reported that an Orthodox bishop was trying to blame bankers particularly those who attend synagogues for the crisis. Funny how New Democracy and PASOK couldn’t be at fault.

    So much for Call Me Dave’s Wrong Time to Call a Referendum line, looks as if it is being washed away by the tide.

    Like

  31. 55
    Sir William Waad says:

    Timeo Danaos et eurones capiunt.

    Like

  32. 60

    Don’t be silly Guido – this is a very small story. Much less important than half a dozen spoil brats whining about how cold it is in central london in a tent in october – just ask the BBC, who place the St Paul’s trivia top of all bulletins.

    Like

    • 130
      Bloated Biased Corporation says:

      That’s cos the BBC believes in exactly the same things as the workshy scroungers.

      Like

  33. 64
    Taxfodder says:

    I pissed myself laughing when I heard this news, whatever next a referendum, individuals having a real say about their children’s future.

    Its an outrage where will it all end?

    Lock them all up!

    Like

  34. 67
    Kered Ybretsae says:

    Greece shouldn’t have been in the Euro at all. The way in, was a huge fiddling of the books for starters. So it is no wonder that they are in such a mess today. The German government support is obviously tied to the fact that the Greeks are one of their best customers for weapons, tanks etc.

    Like

    • 82
      Archer Karcher says:

      The Greeks fiddled the books?
      Does anyone seriously imagine there are not a few others who did precisely the same thing and in all probability still are? A brief trawl through modern history regarding club med practices, should have alerted all but the most gullible to the reality behind the EU / Euro facade.

      Like

      • 108
        Cynical-old-bag says:

        I do not think the ordinary people in Greece are at fault. Governments going way back knew this was a problem and yet did nothing to stop it, because they were probably at it too. People in any country will eventually find loopholes and use it to their advantage if it’s within the law.

        There is a rumour that Greek hospital workers will not be paid for the months of November and December. Many people have had their salaries and pensions cut, and some are trying to exist on less than 400 euros a month with no job and families to support. They have no welfare state as we do in the UK, so some of them will beg for money on the streets. Shops are closing daily, and those who are fortunate enough have had to go abroad to find work to send money back to their families.

        Like

        • 131
          Up the Workers says:

          Sounds a bit like the USSR after the collapse of communism.

          Like

          • Cynical-old-bag says:

            It is awful to see. Papandreou can’t blame the people for avoiding taxes if the laws made it easy for them to do. He knew this would happen one day – but I’ll bet he hoped it wouldn’t happen on his watch!

            Like

        • 153
          stark says:

          They will go back to the old methods. Exacting “bribes”, possibly as food, from patients.

          Like

  35. 68
    the last quango in paris says:

    Good on Greece. Seems to me they want to control their own destiny and not have it dictated to them by Sarkozy. For some reason I bet it doesn’t happen though.

    Like

  36. 76
    Kebab says:

    Greece isn’t a democracy, it’s a sponge-ocracy.

    Like

  37. 90
    Cynical-old-bag says:

    I think Papandreou has asked the people to exonerate himself from any blame. He knows it’s a no-win situation. When the shit hits the fan, he will just say this is what the people voted for.

    Like

    • 122
      Anonymous says:

      Politicians say that anyhow, so demand to be heard.
      Three parties each with a manifesto promising a referendum and we get three three -line whips, and they will still claim we had a voice.

      Like

      • 127
        I'll have some of that..... says:

        Well the reason we don’t get a referendum is because we haven’t tried hard enough. 6 months of rioting, locking ministers out of their offices, the central statistics office closing down etc etc, and Cast Iron Camo might conclude that it’s what the people want.
        Til then, no chance.

        Like

        • 136
          Cynical-old-bag says:

          We can’t demonstrate within cooee of No. 10. I think there is a law somewhere preventing demonstrations within half a mile of Downing Street. Blair or Brown saw to that one.

          Like

          • Voter with a long memory says:

            Anybody else remember NuLiebour screaming all through their opposition years until 1997 that their first act in office would be to remove “Thatcher’s” Downing Street Gates, so that the people could again have free access to Downing Street? Could Tuscan Tony or The Economic Genius Who Saved The World throw some light on this please.

            Like

  38. 92
    6EQUJ5 says:

    117
    6EQUJ5 says:
    October 31, 2011 at 8:30 pm

    @nell. I replied to your comment on last night’s thread but it was modded.

    This is a supreme act of democracy and of patriotism for the people to make their own decision….we have a duty to promote the role and the responsibility of the citizen.”

    This is a ‘Heads I win, Tails you lose’ statement by Papandreou. If the people vote to reject the Euro package they are immediately bankrupt, will probably have to leave the Euro and go back to a devalued almost worthless Drachma.

    If they accept the Euro package they will suffer severe austerity until 2020 that will see the Greeks in the same position as they were in 2010.

    Papandreou is just washing his hands of this catastrophic problem and still remain in power.

    I voted against the referendum in 1975 and would do the same again if given the chance to vote to leave the EU.
    The vote to join the EU was a resounding 2 to 1 for yet in 36 years I have never met anyone that voted for it.

    The destruction of the euro and the EU would be a disaster globally but far worse for 500 million people in Europe.

    Like

    • 96
      6EQUJ5 says:

      Why has my comment modded Guido? FFS

      Like

    • 175
      The Other Bloke says:

      You Lie! No one voted to join the EU!
      Heath took us into the EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY and a few years later we were asked to decide if we wanted to stay in on slightly revised terms or to withdraw. There was a massive campaign to encourage staying in from all political parties. There was ABSOLUTELY no hint of a “Closer Union” of any political powers being surrendered to Brussels or of economic integration. We wuz robbed!

      Like

  39. 95
    Afghanistan Banana Stand says:

    So in order to get a tiny bit of democracy this country needs:

    1) To spend shedloads of money it hasn’t actually got.
    2) It’s people to have a few riots, looting etc.
    3) To have a government that listens to the electorate.

    Ah.
    I think I see the problem there.

    Like

  40. 99
    Billy Bowden is the world's greatest umpire! says:

    FTSE 100 5426.21 – -118.01

    But I told you it would be “Black Tuesday”……and “Black Wednesday” and “Black Thursday” and “Black Friday”

    Heard the latest joke…….

    “+ + + GDP: 0.5 + + +:

    David Cameron,take your refund and fuck off !!!

    Like

  41. 110
    Widescreen2010 says:

    Is there anyone else pro-Euro out there?
    Or is it just me left?
    Currency is just a means of exchange.
    And it is very convenient to have one currency for trade and travel.
    I’m all for it.
    Any notion that issuing your own currency gives you some sort of control over economic affairs is just foolish when this currency is traded and its value is thereby defined.

    Like

    • 123
      Anonymous says:

      More smokescreen than widescreen.

      Like

    • 152
      stark says:

      Point is that when it is traded, it’s value does get defined. Intra-eurozone this value discovery does not take place, which is why the problems on Greece etc. have been able to grow to their current level.

      Plus, you do have options – printing, devaluation, default, which are blocked if you are
      not sovreign.

      Like

      • 160
        Widescreen2010 says:

        When everyone is using the same currency, then you just compare the numbers.
        i.e. the cost of ‘stuff’ (goods, services, wages) in one area will be different from the cost of stuff in another area (and there is free movement of goods and services), and direct comparisons can be made.
        So, ‘devaluation’ for an economy is an option but the difference is that you see the reality of what is happening in numbers that everyone understands and can be compared across countries.
        Everyone in the ‘devalued’ region can see and undrstand that they are now poorer. And their labour is ‘more competitively priced’.
        The single currency just removes the smokescreen.

        Like

  42. 115
    Desperate Dan says:

    An excellent idea from the Greek PM and one that everyone should copy. Don’t feel like paying your mortgage? Racked up too much on your credit card? Have a vote. Ask the 10 year olds in the family “Should I pay my debts or buy sweets?”

    On the other hand perhaps most Greeks recognise that they need to grit their teeth and face up to the mess they’re in. Robert Peston and the BBC might have been telling us lies when they show us the Greeks as all violent morons.

    Like

    • 119
      Cynical-old-bag says:

      I think just about everything shown on the BBC is contrived.

      We can’t believe anything they tell us any more.

      Like

  43. 118
    Geoffrey Brooking says:

    Maybe if Downing Street read this and the Letter of the Day in today’s Daily Express they might take a tip :)

    Like

  44. 120

    Dr Richard Chartres appеars to be yet another overfed, Grauniad reading, BBC loving, sky fairy worshiping man in a purple frock.

    Like

  45. 129
    (I've been renamed) DA-Notice says:

    He’s changed his tune; perhaps he’s been replaced by a robot.

    Like

  46. 141
    They're all the same says:

    Why this obsession with referendums on the EU?

    The EU is an undemocratic, self-serving institution. Everybody knows this.

    But so is Westminster. And so are the bodies than sanction referenda.

    Like

  47. 143
    jabbathecat says:

    Όλα αυτά είναι απλώς βάσεις για το στρατιωτικό πραξικόπημα που πρόκειται να ακολουθήσει, όπως δεν υπήρξε σφαγή των Ελλήνων κομμουνιστών για πάρα πολύ καιρό.

    Like

    • 178
      Broadsword calling Danny Boy says:

      Εκεί θα πάω ξανά, ξεκινώντας από ένα λόγιο, αλλά εξ ολοκλήρου ελληνική coversation. Θα έλεγα ότι το λίκνο της δημοκρατίας ήξερε καλύτερα από το να προσπαθήσουμε αυτό το πράγμα η δημοκρατία και πάλι. Αν ρωτήσετε τους ανθρώπους που πιθανότατα δεν θα δεν είναι όπως την απάντηση και ό, τι ξέρουν ούτως ή άλλως;

      Like

  48. 147
    Cynic says:

    Beware of Greeks demanding gifts

    Like

  49. 151
    Penfold says:

    Papandreou, the Greek PM, has to be biggest dumb shit (bigger than Jon Corzine, ex Goldman’s and leader of bankrupt MF Global) for staging a referendum on his austerity measures and the troika bail-out.

    What a hero, what a brave move, the people will give him and his government the raspberry of all raspberries and that will see a disorderly default and absolute chaos.

    I do like the scenario, Papandreou will go down in history as the Kamikaze pilot who sank the SS Euro with all hands.

    What a story and what a tale to tell the kids, assuming that Brussels doesn’t try to whitewash that piece of idiocy out of the history books and records.

    Like

  50. 154
    Chalcedon says:

    So it’s back to the drachma then.

    Like

  51. 158
    Jimmy says:

    A referendum on cuts? What a splendid idea? Will you be starting the Petition?

    Like

  52. 164
    Cynic says:

    The Eu should simply dismiss Greece. Or even dismiss Greece AND invite Turkey to join. That would show the buggers

    Like

    • 192
      Peter Carter-Fuck says:

      70 million more Muslims, just what Bradford needs.

      Like

    • 197
      50 Calibre says:

      Just dump Greece before they cost us any more. Greece is for holidays and yoghurt.

      Leave Turkey where it is. They will be getting their empire back when the so called Arab Spring is over. That will keep them busy…

      Like

  53. 168
    I hate Blue Labour says:

    This is a negotiating tactic on the Greeks’ part I bet, they’re angling for a bigger write off to ensure the ‘correct’ answer to a referendum is given.

    Like

  54. 183
    Colonel Madd says:

    Are we allowed to ask whether Merkel n’Sarko were told this by Papandreou last week but due to some communications problem they neglected to inform us and instead told us that the bankers were all queuing up for a voluntary tonsure?????????????????

    Like

  55. 185
    Hang The Bastards says:

    Where is my Democracy and my fucking REFERENDUM !

    You bastards !

    Like

  56. 194
    Ian says:

    At this rate EUROGENDFOR (armed EU riot police) will have to pay Greece another little visit…

    Like


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