Foetal Position is Political
Abortion is a real wedge issue politically and a subject Guido usually avoids. It is in the news because of moves to change the legal time limit for an abortion based on the fact that medical advances mean babies can survive at earlier and earlier terms. It seems counter to reason that unborn babies below 24 weeks are unable to feel pain. Any mother who has been through a pregnancy will tell you that their babies react to external stimuli; light, caffeine and noise will all get a reaction from within the womb.
Yet a review by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists’ says foetuses are “undeveloped and sedated”. Since it is from their ranks that those who perform abortions are drawn, Guido questions the scientific objectivity of the report. It would certainly ease their consciences to believe that abortions are painless. Guido is sceptical, they would say that wouldn’t they?
UPDATE : Jessica survived despite being born at 23 weeks (pictured). Do you think she was capable of feeling pain?
But not *scientific*
If you”ll forgive me, I trust the scientists more than religious nutters from the Catholic Church or Mad Nads.
What gives you or a scientist or any other Cnut the right to decide what is or isn’t a human being?
Something called ‘science’. Look it up.
It’s why I don’t pretend sunflowers are human beings for a fucking start.
Or maybe you think it would be far better if I said God told me I had the right ?
I don’t understand how anybody can be so certain:
24 weeks minus one day – OK
24 weeks plus one day -crime
39 weeks approx – murder
So when a scientist tells you that one particular group of people are sub human and can be experimented on that’s ok with you is it? Are you perhaps of German extraction and hold a fascination for experenting on twins. All in the interest of science of course. Your pathetic!
Here we go!
The Nazi’s now represent the entire discipline of modern rational scientific thought. Right. Course they do son.
Don’t be a clueless fuckwit all your life.
Instead if trying to build laughably feeble straw men I suggest you pray to God for guidance on getting your head out of your arse you twat.
I’m a scientist and there is nothing I find more depressing than non-scientists unquestioning belief of ‘scientific’ vested interests. This has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with cliques of powerful individuals and their agendas.
You should not accept the authority of these people — you will be waiting a long time for objectivity and integrity.
My ‘belief’ is anything but unquestioning. For a start I read not only the report but more background on the unique 23 week birth Guido pictures.
But when most of the opposition can be boiled down to nothing more spurious than ‘I don’t trust science’ then I’m going to be far more sceptical of the religious basket cases from the off.
Your so called ‘vested interests’ do not make the Law on this. They certainly don’t enjoy abortions and if the balance of scientific evidence and peer review had found something to merit a change in the Law then they would be the first to not only obey the Law but some would probably actively campaign for it’s change.
Those on the religious side of the argument are by their very nature unlikely to care very much about the preponerance of evidence other than what their ‘holy’ books tell them. They have also shown a scant respect for the Law in places such as the U.S.
Science is not a easy out. It requires understanding but is capable of delivering proof. Organised Religion requires obedience and faith not proof.
Hear hear Sir Willie, all these dates are pretty random though we have moved on from Roman times who thought that all babies under two were sub human to increase the efficiency of their brothels.
I do believe that the papist Guido doth have an axe to grind in this area.
Mad Nads you chose your name wisely because you sound barking…. Can I suggest you add the word hysterical in there as well!!!!!
Past* even.
AND it should be Future* anyway.
Well done Yorkie, you win this round.
yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! yap! yap!
if it looks like human it is
Monkey news!!
If you think that baby looks cute, you should see the daguerreotypes of my Parrot six hours after he was hatched. Swearing already, apparently!
I assume you recognise a line somewhere between spunk and a pensioner.
Do you seriously believe there is no use for reason in drawing this line?
How is it affected by mental and physical disability, death, lack of consciousness, lack of motor and perceptual capabilities, brain activity shown on a SQUID, level of reasoning, physiological and mental reactiosn to stimulus of various sorts, etc etc.
To answer your direct question – I don’t require arights granted by anyones permission to reason and reach conclusions. In a good society nor do I require
I assume you recognise a line somewhere between spunk and a pensioner.
Do you seriously believe there is no role for reason in drawing this line?
How is it affected by mental and physical disability, death, lack of consciousness, lack of motor and perceptual capabilities, brain activity shown on a SQUID, level of reasoning, physiological and mental reactiosn to stimulus of various sorts, etc etc. Does the bible has a section on interpretting EEGs dose that not work.
To answer your direct question – I do not require a grant of rights from anyone to reason and reach conclusions. I do not expect to require permission to discuss my conclusions in public.
If you will forgive me, I don’t. Scientists told us in the fifties that all we had to do if we got contaminated by radiation was to scrub it off with carbolic soap.
More self-serving sophistry from the science/medical group.
Gulf Stream is quite correct – and anyway, how do they know that a foetus <24 weeks cannot feel pain? How do they know that it is not the expression of felt pain that is undeveloped? They don't, and too many scientists have an unjustified arrogance
We would be asking Priests if they thought radiation was dangerous.
Great idea.
when it’s those we elect who will decide regardless of our opinions.
And those we elect in Britain tend not to be religious loons thankfully.
I gave your leaders the ultimate weapon of repression
CONFESS!!!
I did not realize there was a requirement to have religious beliefs to oppose killing unborn children.
You are right, there isn’t. But the more simple minded of the abortionistas think it wins the argument by pitching “science” against “religion”.
Actually they have it the wrong way round: science recognises no “line” in the development from blastocyst to pensioner. Only if you were religious could you logically claim: ‘the fetus is not human before 24 weeks but human afterwards’, if that is what you believe your god to say.
The original (circa 1967) argument in favour of abortion was that the ‘fetus’ was not human and not alive, therefore abortion was ok and the mother’s wish for ‘termination’ was sacrosanct. That was of course a non-scientific, indeed quasi-religious stance.
The current view, apparently, is that abortion is ok because the “fetus cannot feel pain before 24 weeks”. But this argument is pointless if the ‘fetus’ isn’t alive or human. It is as though the abortionistas have conceded the fundamental points that the fetus is alive and human, and are thrashing around for another justification.
Although I am one of those Evangelicals, I’m delighted to see this post in particular.
Doesn’t anyone else find it utterly bizarre that while the doctors were fighting to save baby Jessica, in the same hospital, another doctor could have been terminating a child conceived at the same time? The difference between the two being what? That one had made it out of the mother’s body? *location*? This is a rights issue.
So what is the reasoning for them to feel pain before 24 weeks?
Why should this reasoning affect the time required to develop?
Is your judgement about what is reasonable and counter to reason regarding biological development worth very much?
Guido’s just trying to stir up controversy on the blog due to falling interest.
The picture proves it.
Look up ad hominem on wiki… they’ve got a picture of you there
A plant reacts to external stimuli as do most organisms even amoebas.
Doesn’t mean they are self aware or have fully functioning pain receptors.
Trying to cloud the issue won’t help.
Can someone feel pain when they are unconscious?
nut
It’s legalised killing nothing less.
your site is an after birth.
Who wants to make Information Technology illegal?
I’ve not followed all 255 responses to this so maybe this point has already been made. What difference does it make whether or not the foetus can feel pain at 24 weeks? I fail to see how that affects the ethics. Is it OK for us to kill adults if we anaesthetise them first?
Hello Pandora, can I see what’s inside your box?
you mean jar
Far better to leave research on this issue to catholic priests
ROFL!!!!
Hey guido get out of my vagina!
A nurse of my acquaintance witnessed an abortion as part of her training. She said that when they took the foetus out it moved.
They don’t tell you that.
Yes, but could it feel that it was moving?
A quick search of 24 week foetus on google image show’s why it is wrong, someone morally justify some of those photos.
Just because it looks wrong doesn’t mean it is… someone should morally unjustify the photos.
Heart surgery is fucking disgusting to look at.
Doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
Interesting comparison, the point of heart surgery is to save someones life, not “terminate” it.
Circumcision is legalised child sexual mutilation, but many people seem to be pretty convinced that it’s a good thing.
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/background_briefings/aids/434880.stm
Although it’s not something I’ve gone through (and I’ll be honest I’m not wanting to give it a spin now…) – there seems to be benefits to the health of the circumcised. Not so much for the health of the aborted.
I also know a nurse who takes part in abortions or at least used to until she could stand it no longer. These late abortions are fully formed human beings.
Who has the right to tell anyone what they can do with their body.
Pregancy, despite the equality tsars, is 99.99% women and a small input from man. And even he can be bypassed.
If i were a woman, and some arse wanted to lay down the law on my right to carry or abort a baby, trouble would ensue.
They tell you you can’t smoke or take drugs don’t they?
And do we listen?
Usually when you are put in prison yes!
Do you always do what the government tell you to?
Right, so drugs never get smuggled into prisons and people never try to escape
It depends what you mean by “their body” – there are two to consider.
Until it pops out, they are one.
Two, one inside the other and temporarily dependent on it.
“Until it pops out, they are one.”??!? Are you from the stone age? They are physically separate living humans (one inside the other as LBS says) with different DNA. In fact, scientifically, the ‘fetus’ takes over and ‘controls’ the host (the mother): to stop rejection and to preferentially take nutrients.
I hate the idea of aborted children and I hate the idea of unwanted children, that is the dilemma and no one could possibly have the moral answer.
Some things, like murder, just cannot be explained.
The really sad thing is knowing that someone could not want a child of their own. Using termination as contraception just seems to me to be appalling.
Oh dear.
Reaction to stimuli is not the same as feeling pain. Lots of plants respond to stimuli, but I assume that your grass gets cut ?
Well said. Look at a Venus Fly Trap closing when stimulated by a fly. Or a Sunflower following the sun.
Dumb-arse pro-life appeal to emotion, as usual.
Reaction to stimuli is not NECESSARILY the same as feeling pain. But it often is. Especially for human beings.
I wouldn’t trust the Roman Catholic church to tell me what year it is.
Perhaps you will then trust scientists who tell you that an unborn child is human (what else could it be, an elephant?) and alive (otherwise if it were dead there would be no ‘need’ for a termination in the first place).
“Since it is from their ranks that those who perform abortions are drawn, Guido questions the scientific objectivity of the report.”
This is exactly the conclusion I came to when I was listening to The Toady programme on R4 this morning.
So, let me get this straight. For the first 168 days of a pregnancy, the baby feels no pain whatsoever. Then, suddenly, on day 169, it’s all systems go? Bollocks.
You’ve said all that needs to be said.
Well done !
The suspicion has to be that this review was ordered to counter the change in parliamentary arithmetic that was anticipated.
So put me down as skeptical and cynical.
Remember its a review by the abortionists ordered by the Emily’s list feminists and their career before life allies.
Well here’s proof one subject found a recent abortion very painful indeed: http://tinyurl.com/33fwfzm
Guido, I am so glad that you take this side in the debate on abortion. You are not only politically sound, but ethically as well!
I am sick of The Times’ liberal attitude to life issues and we need more people like you to stand up to it. Well done.
were to next,end of the world,2012?
mind you Guido gets the hits,don’t it!!!
‘A Future Fair for All…’
Only if you were lucky enough not to have been borne by enlightened progressive atheists, apparently. At least Roman prostitutes had the decency to give their poor gits a properly ceremonial burial. Good on you, Guido – if my teenage birth-mother hadn’t been Southern Irish, waited a bit, got on the ferry and put me up for instant adoption in England, I’d have ended up in a bucket too. Bit of a touchy subject here, mate, can’t we talk about people being howwid to cute little foxy-woxies instead? People seem to prefer them.
If you are an expectant mother, it’s a baby and so seem wrong to abort and would cause great pain to the family – maybe even seem like murder as there is an emotional attachment already.
If you are just pregnant and want rid, then it’s a foetus which won’t notice being aborted.
Just like you won’t notice when you are dead, but other people will and that’s why murder is bad.
which is why the BBC comes up with the line
“Anti-abortion campaigners are likely to challenge the reports.”
because it doesn’t fit with their desires.
I hope they are all vegans too or that seems a bit hypocritical to me.
I find it odd that you can abort a child’s life if it appears to have a malfunction or potential disability, yet as an adult, if you want to abort your own life because you are painfully ill, you cannot???
why not,take shotgun suck and pull trigger,job done.
Maybe because people who want to kill themselves can’t get hold of guns?
Seriously – the obsession of authority to prevent causes of voluntary death (eg barbiturates, Codeine without caffeine added etc) means that those people who do make serious attempts have to suffer far worse pain &/or exhibitionist deaths.
Jump in front of a train like that MP, just make sure you get it right!!!
Thou shalt not kill
Thou shalt not “tirtshah” = Thou shalt not kill illegally / murder.
Rather an important difference really.
Thank you David.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1196168/Little-fighter-The-baby-born-23-weeks-survived.html
Guido, you reveal your very weak understanding of basic scientific principles here.
What do you know about double-blinding, the development of the lamina of the spinal grey matter and the cingulate cortex? What do you know of the growth of the nociceptive neurons in the dorsal root ganglia?
Fine, question them all you like, but in science, “it seems counter to reason” is an argument for the ignorant. What reason should a barely mid-term fetus feel pain for?
And, by the way, Obs&Gynae docs don’t abort fetuses because it gives them a buzz!
‘What do you know about double-blinding, the development of the lamina of the spinal grey matter and the cingulate cortex? What do you know of the growth of the nociceptive neurons in the dorsal root ganglia?’
Guido’s not a real welder you know!!
And if welders wrote a paper about welding and he said “it stands to reason that they’re wrong”, then you’d all think he was a right tit.
Suddenly, because it’s the development of nociception in human fetuses, everyone’s a genius.
Signed, Richard Manns, doing a PhD in developmental neurobiology, Cambridge.
Ok Doc no need to blind us with science.
Shouldn’t that be double blind us with science?
Well so what if they don’t feel pain? Damage is being inflicted on them nevertheless. At 24 weeks it is no longer a foetus, it’s a premature baby. Calling it a foetus just makes it easier to justify killing it. If you want to justify killing a premature baby for the convenience of its mother (who has apparently been able to put up wiith being pregnant for 24 weeks but suddenly can’t cope with even a few more) why not just admit it?
Tell us genius what is the nociception in fetus (sic) then?
you are so far up your own arse perhaps it is time you gave birth to yourself,or aborted.
Well, how do you think you’d feel if your partner, being pregnant, was told that the baby (sorry, foetal mass) had a serious problem that could only be sorted out by surgery in utero? Would you say “Give the missus an aspirin, but don’t worry about the little kicker, he can’t feel a fucking thing anyway”?
Just curious.
All very clever and not doubt used to muddy the waters but as Mr Zimmerman once said ‘you dont need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows’
Scientists are often very academic clever people but often have no sense of right and wrong, because they have sacrificed them to the great god intellect.
God you’re are a prick
F*ck off assole
This thread is a bad idea Guido, seems to me like you’re trying to ‘thin out’ your comments section by the use of an extremely touchy subject.
Leave the catholicism at church.
Another accusation of religious bias – does Guido mention the Catholic Church? Leave the straw man arguments out of it. Cnut.
Blow me you fucking monghat.
I too am sceptical. Why not pull back to 20 or 16 weeks and remove all doubt? Why does it take a woman five and a half months to decide whether to terminate?
My man is a pathologist. A few years ago some admin idiot decided to include social abortions in pathological examination along with the natural products of conception which are examined for clues to the pregnancy failure. He said that he was seeing little bits of arms and internal organs which made it very hard to go to work. He always said that if anyone saw what he did they would think differently about their abortion. Today we hear that Roman prostitutes killed their newborn babies because they were unwanted products. I don’t think what we are doing is different whether they feel pain or not.
if they are not wanted then better they are not born to a life of being unwanted.
If our contined life was dependent on being wanted. Then most of us wouldn’t be here. A pretty sobering thought!!
The Abortion Act was passed in 1967, the year of the Summer of Love.
I wonder how many of Guido’s readers would be absent had the legislation been passed earlier.
and the pill was!!!
i was a 15 year old dad in 67
Yeah. Quite. I worked on a gynae theatre in the ’70′s (best student work experience job ever) and at that they sometimes used to cut up the foetus in the womb. Cured me of approving of abortion forever.
Mind you I am not sure that I have the necessary intellect to argue this one way or the other. It is a massively complex argument. F’rinstance if the mother’s life is threatened by carrying the baby what’s the answer…?
Every way I look at this it just seems to be so monumentally sad. I just find it impossible to comprehend how anyone could not want a child. I know I know the classic 15 year old pregnancy, but stil…..
But this thread has produced some excellent argument that just confirms the complexity of the arguments for and against.
ar ta be sure your a good catholic boy Guido
Abortion – as practised by the Roman’s….
Some children have been inconvenient for millennia …
The telegraphs teen team use murdered,not just it could have been the romans were shit at delivery and they just were still born.
ALL children are inconvenient. I’m in favour of a reverse Logan’s Run law – exterminate everyone younger than 30.
PS: ‘the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists’ says foetuses are “undeveloped and sedated”’.
Gordon Brown is undeveloped and sedated, too. Can we kill him? Please?
“exterminate everyone younger than 30″ ‘ere. you plagarising me mate?
damn skippy. There are plenty of chav teenagers we should be able to abort as well.
Scientific research comes out & says a foetus can’t feel pain. Anti-abortionists say “it’s not just about science”. Funny that.
Anyone using religious beliefs in an argument such as this should be discounted due to the fact they believe in fairies & other equally mythical creatures
fuck off
I’m a fairy
Sorry Gay Foetus to bring the news that being gay gives you rights however, being an unborn child guarantees you have no rights. The doctors waiting…..
do I have rights ?
Only once you’ve proved yourself a man!
Nothing is just about science. We are intelligent beings with an ability to to take or reject morality. In another context it was said ” War is too important to be left to the Generals” Life and death are far too important subjects to be left to the scientists!!
death is to important to be left to the living.
Of course it is not just about science.
The reasons abortion is legal are not scientific, they are moral and philosophical.
The gestational limit for abortion is not scientific, it is entirely arbitrary, arrived at by negotiation among moralisers on both sides of the argument, each making very selective use of the available science. Wk 23 OK. Wk 24 No can do.
The best precision with which the gestational age can ever be known is more than one day and there is a huge dependency on the mother’s honesty. The obverse of RCOG announcement is that pain cannot be ruled out in Wk 24. This puts Wk 23 abortions in very difficult territory ethically, moreso since the viability of Wk 22 foetuses is not in dispute.
What are the implications of the absence of pain anyway?
How ought we to view the crimes of a murderer who anaesthetises and sedates his victims prior to killing them?
Is it ‘less wrong’ to kill a five-year-old child if they have a clinically demonstrated congenital insensitivity to pain?
If you honestly believe that laws should be made on scientific grounds alone, can you please point us all to the scientific rationale outlawing cannabalism?
How about incest between consenting ‘pro-choice’ campaigners?
You’re a brummy dimwit.
Explain ‘Dark Matter’ monkey.
Now that, really is scientific ‘Fairy Dust’.
( Maths dont add up ? Add fudge factor, magic dust. No one can see it, no one can measure it. However the maths now adds up. )
I instructed Passive AIO. We used fudge factors, but we called ourselves, the ‘Bishops of Bullshit’. Never trust your own judgement. Always question. Do what is right and have ‘Faith’.
Let’s just cut the bullcrap and raise the limit to three years after conception. Don’t like your toddler? Gone!
We don’t need to argue about the morality if we all know it’s wrong.
Case closed.
I fucked a really hot bird last night.
Just slip it back in the oven and it will still be good for Sunday lunch.
Best comment on the thread
Forget whether babies feel pain at 24 weeks or not. It’s a red herring being used to drive a politico-religious agenda.
If it’s possible for medical science to save a premature baby at this age then to also have 24 weeks as the abortion limit is more than just counter-intuitive – it’s barking mad.
Rather than continuosly argue over this, we need a process that will flex with changes in science. I think we need to set a gap between current medical ability to save premature babies (ie 24 weeks) and the upper limit for abortions of (say) 4 weeks. Then review the abortion laws every 5 years to reduce this limit as medical science improves.
You can argue instead that we should set the limit at where we believe science will potentially arrive with respect to viability.
In vitro gestation will at some point become a reality.
Many premature babies have severe physical and mental disabilites.Even mild leaning disabilities costs the family and the country a fortune in emotional and financial terms….Sometimes it it kinder for them not to survive….Where will it all end? Will we one day be able to save a foetus of nine weeks old or even a one day old sperm?
What is your point, Jan?
You do realise that immediate delivery at 23 weeks is not the only alternative to abortion?
And that stopping killing inconvenient potentially-viable foetuses will not necessarily lead to blobs of ѕрunk taking up bed-space in the SCBU?
We did save a one day old sperm Jan.
We put it in a woman’s egg Jan.
Short while later, you arrived.
We are all glad your here. “Hello Jan. Nice to meet you.”
Everyone ! Meet Jan, say hello.
Nazi?
Libertarian theory of abortion: ‘Evictionism’
Sounds like sophistry to me.
Conservative MP David Tredinnick supports providing homeopathy on the National Health Service. And his personal expenses scandal, he had claimed for astrological computer software.
Homeopathy is bad enough but any MP using fucking astrology should be forced to wear a dunce’s cap in the Commons.
I think they should be sacked, along with any who believe in invisible magic sky-gods.
Why
Because the evidence of our own eyes shows they are not in full command of their senses.
Do you mean one of those Wizard type ones ? Tall and pionted ?
Like in the days of the druids.
Great, that’ll add some cheer to the old place.
So in Guido’s opinion:
Anecdotal evidence from “any mother” 1:0 Experimental evidence
Well isn’t that just great…
On what scientific grounds do you base your skepticism Guido?
£ p
At 24 weeks a foetus has grown into a human shape and is therefore a little human. At 24 weeks it isn’t abortion, it’s murder, the murder of a human being.
The document has greenlighted that murder is ok and is painless for human beings that are scheduled for termination at 24 weeks of age. That doesn’t even make sense. Do-gooding leftism at its worst, completely lacking in common sense. The medical ‘evidence’ is anything but that and sounds completely biased and opinionated rather than factual. Sloppy and obfuscating a murderous attitude. Shipman’s of babies.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/images/ency/fullsize/9575.jpg
Guido see what you have brought upon your site,
Well said
This sedated nonsense is bollocks. You wou wouldn’t justify killing someone just because they had gone too sleep so why kill babies who will one day wake up!!!
It’s not just he Catholic church. Most Christians, indeed most people of faith (eg Muslims) are against abortion. There is no getting round it, in the UK we kill 200,000 babies every year; the cost is huge, both short and long term and largely hidden. Why do the BBC and the Times big up this report and not mention yet another scientific study linking breast cancer to abortion, or premature babies to previous abortion, or depression etc etc?
Muslims, they need cannon fodder!
Isobella that scientific study linking breast cancer with abortion was on such a small scale that many scientitst have discounted it.As far as I can see and I have done lots of my own reading there are five main causes of breast cancer.They are: taking HRT,early menstruation,obesity,alcohol and being childless. As for the cost, the real cost is to the women who have the abortions.Many have mental health issues after an abortion.I will not make a judgement on the rights and wrongs of abortion.
I remember some 20 years ago volunteering for a local authority abortion helpline in London.Many of the women who volunteered had had abortions in the previous 12 months and were very emotional and I think they weren’t able to give any impartial advice to anybody.I was interviewed and was turned down as a volunteer as I said that you would have to think very long and hard whether it was the right thing to do as many women years after abortions had come to regret their decisions.Years ago it was not possible for women to have careers and be mothers,now everything has changed.
On a slightly different tack most of the baby-making machines in the UK ie the feckless single mother, should not only have abortions,they should be encouraged to be sterilised.But of course the sisterhood wouldn’t want that.The likes of Hatty and Diane would be out of a job if there were fewer single mothers in their constituencies.They live off the problem women,they are the parasites.Hattie,Diane and all the rest of Labour wimmin (and the men) encourage fecklessness and poverty.That is why I despise them.
10/10
I looked up the paper ‘Prolonged breastfeeding reduces risk of breast cancer in Sri Lankan women: a case-control study’. It is published in a peer reviewed academic journal and while 100 cases and 203 controls is not a huge sample compared to MMR it is nevertheless respectable, and was published.
I would not dare to judge any woman who has an abortion, I know many women are under huge duress, but that does not mean that to say abortion is wrong is judgemental. I feel desperately sad not just for the babies, but the mum’s and believe it or not the people that carry out the procedure.
As to cost I was thinking mainly of the emotional cost.
Finally I would add, as a Christian, that forgiveness is available to anyone that asks for it.
As to your final point, oh you are just SO wrong and patronising. I like Sikhs – at least they don’t proselytise – you should try it at some point, you might win some more friends in life.
MPs’ expenses: Nadine Dorries pays £50,000 of allowances to close friend
A Conservative MP whose parliamentary expenses are under investigation by the Commons sleaze watchdog paid more than £50,000 of public money to a close friend.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/7853181/MPs-expenses-Nadine-Dorries-pays-50000-of-allowances-to-close-friend.html
Last time I looked it took two people to make a ‘feckless baby making machine’.
I find it strange that the same people who are prepared to kill unborn children get very upset when the Japanese propose to kill a few whales.
Perhaps the moral compass needs to be re-calibrated.
Moral Compass™
Instructions for use:
1. Point the device at a scene of devastation made by your own hand.
(N.B. may require recalibration if used outside the Kingdom of Fife).
How do you know they are the same people?
Pregnancy as a result of rape excepted, why do so many women seem to use abortion as contraception. With implants, pills, IUD’s, morning afters, and even good old extra strong johnnys, why do they allow any old scrote to let fly up their chuffs and then expect the NHS to sort it out later.
I have always thought it has to be a womans right to terminate a pregnancy if she thinks she can’t either raise or give up the child and I have no idea if abortion hurts the foetus and couldn’t say when it becomes murder, but it should rarely get to that stage.
“Why do they allow any old scrote to let fly up their chuffs and then expect the NHS to sort it out later.”
Because they’re thick chav scum. Many of them don’t even remember anyone going up their chuff in the first place, so utterly inebriated were they.
If they weren’t allowed to abort, Britain’s chav-infestation would be horrific. Imagine an extra 200,000 chavs every year.. the stuff of nightmares.
You’ve just reminded me of the chapter in “Freakonomics” where as a result of Roe vs. Wade, the state-by-state legalisation of abortion had a strong correlation with a reduction in crime 20 years later, in the same state-by-state order.
The authors said the data suggested the big reductions in crime in New York were because there were less criminals, because they had been aborted.
” why do they allow any old scrote to let fly up their chuffs”
Their told anal is dirty and wrong.
More anal, less babies. Simples.
I can’t believe I put the wrong “Their”.
Maybe I was too busy thinking of putting it “There”.
They’re
Even worse your correction is wrong, it should be They’re
bah.. do I have to explain the joke?
Well I won’t.
You don’t have a very good opinion of women do you? Do you really think that it’s all about chavs and old scrotes? Do you ever think there might be people with much wanted babies who need to take this heart-rending decision? Maybe a bit more thought before you type.
Here’s a bit more thought for you, deary: I worked for a charity near Watford. It provided child-rearing advice to female chavs who’d got themselves up the duff. On Mondays, they’d be queuing outside with their bags of chips, in to see the counsellor. The same story every time: “I think I had s/ex on Saturday night, but I can’t remember. What should I do.”
My child was born at 28 weeks, and thus had to spend some time first in intensive care, then in a Special Care Baby Unit.
During that time I saw several 22 and 23-week old babies, tended very diligently by the hospital staff, loved and fussed over by their parents. Most of them didn’t survive. At least one of the 23-week babies did, though. And another friend of mine has a daughter born at 23 weeks who recently made a great success of her GCSEs. She is a bit small and wears glasses but is ‘normal’ – possibly above normal – in every other way.
None of which proves anything, I guess, except that it makes it incredibly hard for me to believe that a 24-week baby is fundamentally different from any other sort of baby, and the idea of aborting a 24-week baby makes me very sad indeed.
If Gordon had been aborted just think how much pain it would have saved.
Ah yes. Perhaps scientists could better spend their time sorting out time travel. Then we could be absolutely sure about whom to abort. But of course we couldn’t because if Gordon had been aborted he wouldn’t have happened and then in the future we wouldn’t have known to travel back in time and sort him out, so we’d have had the git anyway which means we would have known about him and could travel back in time and….ooo noooo, wait a minute. Something isn’t quite right here?
http://www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/
What is Dianne Abbott’s view?
No wanking.it’s a bay your spunking there.
baby
No – I don’t think Jessica felt pain – not as we know it.
When a baby is borne so early and doctors try desperately to help it survive, the “pain” it must go through is much worse IMO
Yes but the reward is life in that case. Not death.
Come on! This has just been raised in order to deflect attention off the budget, BP, the war in Iraq, Afghanistan, the number of dead British Soldiers while Dodgy Dave cuddles up to Obama.
You got it right the 1st time . Stay away from it.
Yo Guido!
You’re absolutely right on this. I’m a hospital doctor, and no-one seriously claims abortion is not killing. They know what they’re doing.
Two points:
1. The foetus can definitely feel pain at an early stage
2. Even if it couldn’t, so what? You don’t decide to kill because it won’t hurt. It’s a moral issue, not a utilitarian one. It’s right or it’s wrong.
Great man Guido, this is important. Well done for raising it.
A hospital doctor who says, “yo”.
Shouldn’t you be changing the water in the flower vases? The patients are getting thirsty.
He’s probably an immigrant doctor.
The fragrant Nadine tells us that most doctors who carry out abortions are immigrants
Yo, shithead!
I’m a real proper doctor who does difficult life saving things, possibly unlike yourself. And I’m not an “immigrant”.
However, even though I actually know loads about biology, science, medicine etc etc, it’s primarily a moral argument. I know that’s difficult for you.
” no-one seriously claims abortion is not killing”
Maybe – but it’s not killing a person which is what murder is.
Or do you think that a person is just a human life?
Emotional attachment makes a human being into a person – it seems only catholics can’t see this difference which is why they commit so much suicide and why it should be seriously looked into that this doctrine is causing harm to children (and thereby people in later life)
Karl ! Go Back to that nice spot in Highgate and fucking stay there.
You’ve caused enough death and dispare for three life times. Now shut UP.
My wife walked in the after a long, gruelling days work yesterday to find me fast asleep on the couch as usual. She starts screaming atme about being a lazy, good for nothing slob!! “What the fuck is wrong with you??” she asks.
Suddenly it hits me!!
What the fuck IS wrong with me???
I slept through all my tv programmes!!!!
I would certainly increase the abortion age, up to 16 years of age!
It is needed for some of the trash round here!
If baby Jessica was born at 23 weeks and if the calculations are correct then the time limit for an abortion should be reduced to alleviate suffering and doubt.I am not convinced it is in the women’s interest to have late abortion if they think the foetus or baby will suffer. In the interest of both women & the foetus/baby the time limit should be reduced.
I do not believe in anti-abortion. It will only lead to back street clinics and botched abortions.
Go on Guido, throw Mad Nads a bone.
Because she’ll never amount to anything in the New Model LibCon Party under Cameron and Clegg.
And she’ll be lucky to ever get noticed by the Speaker in the Commons after her embarrassing failed coup attempt, even if she took a shit on the green benches.
Don’t get banged up in the first place all you slags
When a baby is born it isnt much more than an animal, “feed me, sleep, shit etc”, there’s nothing really going on upstairs until they start to develop mentally, which takes place in the months after they are born.
Don’t really see the issue with abortion because of this.
yeah mon da cd blank til u burn it.
This is abject ignorance of the first order – read Arthur Janov’s books, and discover just how spectacularly mistaken you are.
Babies experience reality through a spectrum of pure emotion. No thoughts, just unimaginable fear, panic and terror.
We also heard today that they have uncovered a Roman cemetery in Buckinghamshire with the mass burial of 97 newborn infants. The archaeologists think this was the site of a brothel and that the Romans were in the habit of killing and burying unwanted babies.
was it a Roman catholic cemetry
What do you think doc can we save this poor sperm cell?
Not feeling the need to declare that you are a Catholic here, Guido?
Because it could, you know, affect your view on this. Catholic Church doesn’t think much of abortion, from what I’ve heard.
Does anyone doubt that Jessica (the 23 weeks surviving “foetus” pictured) was a human being when she was born, even if she couldn’t feel pain? And if she had been aborted at 23 weeks, would that have been killing a human being? If not, why not? The pro-choice side of the argument need to be able to incorporate such exceptions into their reasoning, otherwise they are as fundamentalist as the “nutters” they despise.
All life is sacred,except those who do and have abortions.
See Guido.You make a stand on this and you have to watch you don’t upset the extremists
There was a documentary a few years back following trainee doctors. They went to watch a late-term abortion and most of them ran from the room, either very green or being physically sick. Whilst I respect choice at an early stage (morning after etc), I really do think that the public position on this issue would fundamentally change if they knew the truth about what is involved in a late term abortion (basically cut it up and pull it out). One of my closest friends had to have a late termination for medical reasons and it was awful. In that case they injected the foetus to kill it and she then had to go through a full labour – I simply cannot imagine the emotional pain she went through.
Guido – well done for bringing this up. I personally do not see the justification (with a few medically necessary exceptions) for terminating what could be a valid life. If the mother doesn’t want to/can’t keep it – put it up for adoption – there are plenty of responsible couples who would love to provide for the child.
Davina x
what if being a little shit is inate
Would you ban late term abortions for all those who disagree with you, aren’t squeamish and are emotionally strong enough to do the deed and move on with the rest of their lives? Or do you intend to interfere and foist your views on others?
By that argument any crime would be ok as long as you felt no remorse.
But abortion isn’t a CRIME is it sunshine? Nice try.
Hi Alfie
I’m not into banning things at all, it is more a case of sensible and pragmatic argument. I don’t believe that sqeamishness or emotional strength come into this debate (certainly not from my point of view – I am not squeamish and have an awful lot of emotional strength). It seems to be more a case that society tends to divide into sky-pixie fans at one end of the debate and strangely millitant feminist types at the other, while the majority of middle-of-the-road peeps are: a) ignorant of the facts and b) couldn’t care less.
I just cannot see the justification of terminating a viable life when there is no threat to the mother when there are literally thousands of couples desperate to adopt.
Davina x
Hi Dame Davina,
Understand. But….how about the fact that the woman doesn’t want to be pregnant, go to full term, go through the trauma and risk of birth, give up a baby and then have the possibility of a visit from a questioning 18 year old later in life. Selfish reasons maybe but justification none the less. Or how about the fact that resources and space on the planet are depleted. As for potential adopters millions of kids out there to choose from now.
most cops on their first accident vomit too,so what.
First time you clean up a geriatric patient who has shit themselves isn’t a great way to start the day.
Should we stop doing everything which isn’t very nice?
No we should not “stop doing everything which isn’t very nice”, obviously. (I love meat, but wouldn’t particularly enjoy working in a slaughterhouse) However I genuinely believe that most people do not understand the reality of late-term abortions. As I say, apart from the exceptional medical cases, can anyone explain to me why they are necessary? I am SO not coming from a religious or strong political viewpoint – I am just being pragmatic – on what grounds is it justifiable to kill a viable child other than serious medical issues that threaten the mother?
Davina x
Does this mean that as long as I anaesthetize David Milliband I’m ok to feed him to the pigs?
He won’t feel a thing I promise….
“UPDATE : Jessica survived despite being born at 23 weeks (pictured). Do you think she was capable of feeling pain?”
Luckily it seems not…. or it seems a bit cruel to put her through all that – Cruel bastards.
I see no pic.
Emotive bollocks Guido. If they feel pain then we just need to find a way of killing the pain before the baby.
More abortions needed. Planets resources are depleted. I’m also fed up of paying for offspring that the feckless ‘parents’ can’t afford.
Don’t any of you religious nutters start up either – I don’t care what you think. God is either…. Lazy – can’t be bothered to prevent suffering, Incompetent – can’t stop wars etc, Cruel – enjoys watching the sick circus down here on earth or….NOT REAL!
Opposing abortion on religious grounds doesn’t hold.
Too right
Are you agreeing with me or calling me a Nazi? If all arguments are lost – accuse your opponent of being a Nazi……
And who on this blog has opposed abortion on religious grounds?
Wa*ker.
Hi Good Doctor,
Have you never heard an argument opposing abortion on religious grounds? I haven’t myself seen such an argument on this blog but I was asking the religious types not to start, rather than asking them to stop. Are you suggesting that such an argument would not or could not be made on this blog? If not then I would humbly suggest that it is you who is the w*nker for making such a silly point.
Opposing abortion on religious grounds is just a subset of the more general problem of opposing reality on religious grounds. It’s depressingly common in the USA, and one more reason why the chinese will be eating them for breakfast over the next 100 years. We don’t need this kind of anti-science sectarian religious bullshit in the UK thank you.
Given the harn-on Guido has for Palin I’m too suprised by this to be honest, but it’s a scientific paper. If it’s false it can be proven false by further research and scrutiny without having to resort to ad-hominem on the individuals who wrote it.
How about the raid on the Belgian branch of the 1st Roman Church of Pedophillia? Can we have a moralising post on that?
Sometimes I think the only reason Catholics are so anti abortion is that they are worried there might be a shortage of kids to rape.
And opposing religion on ideological grounds (alarmingly often the domain of hypocrites who genuinely believe they are the most tolerant people they know) is even more fucked up.
(That would be the type of thing this guy used to get up to, so I wouldn’t start singing the praises of Mao and his successors too loudly if I were you).
The suggestion that a someone who sees a spiritual argument to support the sanctity of life must be grouped with fundamental creationists and suchlike is just a really lazy argument. It makes you look stupid.
The logic that one person’s belief (or lack thereof) can ‘trump’ another’s and thus render everything they say void is plain barmy.
Re. the rape ‘joke’, try rehearsing in front of the mirror and chekcing whether you laugh before you post next time.
P.S. Most Catholics are parents, not priests, you dick.
“Most Catholics are parents, not priests, you dick.”
Organically grown, sustainable child-rape – even better!
NHS waiting lists are so long it takes 18 months to get an abortion, that’s when things get really messy.
“Yet a review by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists’ says foetuses are “undeveloped and sedated”.
So what? You manage to write a hugely successful blog in that condition.
Ouch!
Did write.
He’s clearly running out of material
Ouch!
Nice of you to say so.
Well we are the nice party after all.
When did feeling pain become a deciding factor…
Is it OK to kill old people with morphine overdoses because ‘they cant feel anything’ ?
stir stir stir
This morning, when interviewed, the leader of the “research” team admitted that they used animal data and had limited their scope deliberately.This admission disqualifies it from having any meaning whatsoever.Write the conclusion first then fiddle the data to support it is the mantra of much so called research that is politically motivated and should be mistrusted
Apparently premature babies do feel pain – see here (http://www.mcgill.ca/reporter/32/08/johnston/)
“Her research has shown that even babies born three months prematurely and weighing only 500 to 600 grams can feel pain.”
A person who works with real babies says that premies feel pain.
You can bet that being aborted feels really shit.
If you don’t want babies, take the fucking pill, the before one or the after one.
Given the advances in contraception since the abortion act was passed, we should be doing a couple of hundred abortions a year, max.
How many are actually done? 195,296.
Of those parents that i know with very premature babies, one father described his child as ‘fucked, just fucked’ – 8 yrs old.
Dealing with surgeons’ bravado, ‘we got it to live’ . . . does not come into it. Yes they got it to live, but they don’t spend the rest of their life looking after the reality of their triumph – deaf; blind; incontinent; paraplegic and most combinations.
And then there is the remodelling of the house to accommodate wheelchairs, downstairs bedroom and so on.
Marxism, the new man. No weak christian compassion here. Only the collective practical reality.
I find that the selfish will alway find a justification for their actions.
But when they, get hit by a car, fall ill, suffer depression or have just plain bad luck.
O how they fucking make everyone’s life a misery
Tips on how to masturbate;
If you’re a girl
1) Get something small if it’s your first time, like a lip gloss container. Make sure it’s got a rounded tip.
2) Put a little water on it.
3) Get yourself on the ground or your bed. Make sure you’re comfortable.
4) Put your feet up on something. Make sure they are higher than your head. Spread your legs.
5) For the ultimate experience, relax first. Just lay there. Think about nothing. And DONT BE NERVOUS.
6) Slowly begin to touch your breasts. Feel them (have your eyes closed or open but if they are open make sure you’re not focusing on anything)
7) Keep one hand on your breast and slowly move the other one down to your thigh. (I did not have underwear but I was wearing pants and a shirt, loose pants.) Move your hand up and down your thigh while massaging your breast.
8) With your breast hand, slowly take the lip gloss container or your object of choice. Your clit might start to get a weird feeling like you really want to touch it. DON’T.
9) Tease yourself with the object by gently rubbing the spot between your poophole and vagina. This will drive you nuts. Slowly begin to touch and massage the part right above the hole. (I suggest you know where it is before you start all this.)
10) Rub for a while. Gently, occasionally harder but not too hard yet.
11) At this point you should be aching to rub harder and just get going. Again, don’t. If you do not feel this yet, continue the teasing, very gently.
12) Slowly move your fingers to the hole, don’t put them in, but just finger it softly.
13) Take your object and place it near the hole and your other hand. Take your free hand off the hole and start to massage your clit harder. (That’s the spot above the hole)
14) Slowly stick the object in. Gently, it shouldn’t feel good yet. It might hurt a small amount going in. That means you’ve bumped a sensitive spot. That’s not a bad thing, just angle it a little and keep going.
15) Once it’s in as far as it can be without losing it to your pussy, begin slowly moving it in and out a little. Don’t take it all the way out, just a little. Get faster, and faster. Start massaging your clit HARD. Go nuts. You might feel like your on the brink of an orgasm. You might have one. This feels very good.
16) Then stick it in all the way and start pushing it back and forth hitting the sides of your hole. Faster, faster. Massage clit again.
17) Repeat steps 15 and 16 as much as you want. If you take it out for longer than 30 seconds, I suggest you excite yourself again with the teasing. If you do, it will be worse. Since you have already done it, you’re going to want it worse.
18) I would stop with the lip gloss for now, don’t go on to something bigger. Save that for another night. You could be sore after this but you shouldn’t be unless you used something large.
If you’re a boy
1)Read this.
2)Rub penis.
“a human being?”
A common phrase brought up in such discussions. Of course a baby of any age is a human being, “human” just being a tag for our species.
If you judge the right or wrongness of abortion on whether it is human, it’s a pretty short clear argument against.
I’d rather argue about whether it is a conscious intelligent being, or the intelligence equivilent of an plant or animal.
I don’t see how the truth or error of this reports makes any difference. The foetus can’t feel pain, so it’s OK to kill it?
If you’re prepared to kill it, you’re surely prepared to cause it pain.
I’m not against abortion but as one eminent physician has stated to give such a definitive answer particularly when the subject can’t be asked the question “does it hurt” appears to be very subjective. The truth will be that we simply don’t know for sure either way
My daughter who is 24 weeks has just been for a scan & when the midwife started poking about it started kicking not that she could feel it but it sure could be seen on the scan
Completely take your point on this. By the way, have there ever been any mothers that didn’t go through a pregnancy?
Those who have adopted? Or are they not mothers?
Muppet.
An abortion is an assault upon a woman and a child
Surprise surprise socialists are the ones behind it
Women are bullied into this mass murder
A friend of mine is a Dr, she sthat she would Never abort a child
No normal woman who has ever had an abortion doesnt regret it
Define a normal woman.
And what makes them feel worse is by saying that those that want an abortion are abnormal.
Without your guilt-tripping them for doing nothing wrong then it’ll all be fine… so think about that before you spout your hate words.
All this stuff about feeling pain is a red herring. Our society is paranoid about pain. A relatively short period of even quite intense pain doesn’t do a robust person any harm; if the pain is felt by a semi-conscious foetus that is anyway in the process of being killed, what is the problem?
I tend to agree with Peter Singer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer#Abortion.2C_euthanasia_and_infanticide). I can’t see too much wrong with post-natal abortion. OK, lots of people can, but that seems to argue for the moment of birth as a reasonable cut-off point for abortion.
The mother & people around her are probably too emotionally attached at this point
I’m pro-choice, but the 24 week limit no longer seems defensible… surely a cut to 22 or 20 or 18 is inevitable in the long term?
Guido, stick to writing about politics. You’re quite good at that. Leave writing about science to people who understand it.
Bore off to America with this bullshit.
The limit should be twelve weeks maximum.
People who believe that the limit should be 22-24 weeks or later should be forced to watch a 20+ week terminated baby gasp out its life in a kidney tray or in a hospital sink or see the pieces of a human baby being dragged out of a woman.
I really mean it folks, we should be made to watch the abortion of a 24 week old foetus with close ups of it dying, I can tell you that if the ugly facts were shown on national TV the limit would come down to 12 weeks like greased goose shit of a wet shovel.
Abortions are sadly a necessary evil because of our selfish and sex driven culture where children are seen as disposable and rape victims should always be given the choice and the same for severely disabled babies of course. But I can tell you that peoples attitudes would change if they had to endure watching a tiny infant being effectively murdered.
Watching a tiny little baby dying in a sink will haunt me for the rest of my life, I saw it and it changed me forever, many will not believe how utterly heartbreaking it is until they see it for themselves, you would have to have a heart of stone not to be moved at the cruelty and waste.
Cassandra, quite a harrowing post…but so true! It is a waste!
Hmm…when I watched the ultrasound of my daughter at 12 weeks she was having a good old bounce about in her mummy’s tummy…scratched her nose too. At 20 weeks, she was very active moving about and reaching out to touch the wall of the sack that they float in (sorry dunno what it’s called).
If she couldn’t feel anything…then why scratch herself…why ‘touch’ things?
I’ve watched abortion videos and seen the pictures scattered around the net…yes surgery is gross but seeing hands, legs, eyes etc ripped apart from the body is just not right? And of course when they come out alive they are throttled or have their necks broken by the abortionist.
So what is it guys? Something alive comes out…and it’s killed? I don’t have the answer and I’m not saying it’s wrong because there is valid reasons for abortion. But like previous posters have said: watch the videos, look at the pictures and read the accounts of former abortionists and nurses etc. There will be a lot that you don’t want to see or read.
Since they presumably believe the unborn child to be part of the woman’s body, is it the whole of a woman’s body that is insentient, or only the parts directly concerned with reproduction?
I think it needs to be emphasised that these late abortions are very unusual – approx 1% of the total number. The majority of those undergoing this distressing procedure have discovered that there is something seriously wrong with their usually much wanted baby.
Many things, such as spina bifida / serious cardiac abnormalities/ abnormal brain development are not discovered until the anomaly scan at 19-21 weeks. Those women who have abnormal scans are then usually referred to a regional specialist service who may themselves seek a second or third opinion. The decision to do this is not made lightly and parents need to be informed about the likely (but not definite) outcomes if they choose to continue with the pregnancy. This is not a perfect science, but predictions can be made and then some women decide that it would ultimately save the baby pain and suffering to end the pregnancy at this stage.
The majority of clinicians performing late abortions limit the suffering of the fetus by injecting potassium chloride under ultrasound guidance. The baby dies very quickly (within minutes) and does not have to undergo the stress of labour.
Many of us who perform abortions struggle with women, particularly those who refuse to use contraception, who repeatedly attend but the vast majority of women in the situation described in the posting do not fall into that category
“The majority of clinicians performing late abortions limit the suffering of the fetus by injecting potassium chloride under ultrasound guidance. The baby dies very quickly (within minutes) and does not have to undergo the stress of labour.”
Well thank god for that (sarcasm)! the baby only has to suffer for minutes…great? Google search a person that survived such an abortion that you described…had the abortionist been present she’d of had her head snapped off! However, he wasn’t…so she survived and was then adopted.
I’m no pro-life nut…but i’ve seen the procedures…it put me off abortion! And I firmly believe that if the UK public had seen what I saw…then yeah…abortion would most likely be outlawed!
As for Guidos post on this…he highlights an important thing: Early abortion is bad for business!
I am not sure what Google has come up with, but the baby does not suffer (and for other posters, yes I am using the term baby rather than conceptus / foetus / products of conception and the other terms that abound). If the procedure is done properly the baby is scanned at the time of the procedure and the person performing the procedure watches the heart stop beating due to the effect of the drug within minutes. I wish we lived in a world where abortion was not necessary, but am pleased that I live in a civilized country where if 3 people agree that it is an appropriate course of action termination of pregnancy is possible.
Guido,
A full-term baby does not have a fully developed nervous system: we do you think they are so uncoordinated?
DK
Seems that full term adults lack the same eh?
“Jessica survived despite being born at 23 weeks (pictured). Do you think she was capable of feeling pain?”
Aha! Medical Science! We look at a picture and guess.
Guido is a social conservative posing as a libertarian then? A lot of that in the Tory party.
Duncan is a Labour twat posing as a….erm….twat? A lot of his type in the Labour Party!
People conveniently forget that life begins at conception, using such euphemisms as “tissue” when referring to the fetus. Although subconsciously they know they are killing somebody, they prefer to say they are “terminating the pregnancy,” so they may feel free of the guilt for murder, thus deluding themselves psychologically
They cannot escape the punishment for murder given by the laws of karma. In their next lives they will have to suffer the misery of repeatedly being aborted
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada one of India’s greatest scholars, and spritual leaders has told us everything we need to know about abortion:
“They are killing the baby in the womb. How cruel! In this age of unwanted population, man is losing his compassion. When you kill a living entity, even an ant, you are interfering with its spiritual evolution, its progress. That living entity must again take on that same life form to complete its designated life term in that body. And the killer must return to pay for damages.”
and elsewhere:
“You are killing innocent cows and other animals–nature will take revenge. Just wait. As soon as the time is right, nature will gather all these rascals and slaughter them. Finished. They’ll fight among themselves. It is going on. Why? This is nature’s law. Tit for tat. You have killed. Now you kill yourselves.”
The karmic repercussions of abortion are not “punishments” in the sense of being the vengeance of a wrathful God, they are simply the consequences of violating a universal laws, whether through ignorance, fear, or other motive.
I do not believe there is a “god” or “gods”. Why should one person be forced to comply with the beliefs of another person? I know 4 women who had abortions for various reasons. The most ironic one was because she was engaged to a catholic but was a divorcee. His parents would not accept her if they weren’t married in a catholic church so they were working to get an annulment when she came up preggers. One got an abortion because she became pregnant by a a man of another race. The 3rd one was married with 2 children and didn’t have the money for another child plus the fact the husband was not the father. The 4th one was raped. As far as I’m concerned, all 4 had the right to decide what was best for them. If men were the sex to get pregnant, this debate would never happen as they would proclaim their right to make decisions concerning their own bodies without permission from any other person and that would be that. And that should be that for women.
I’m waiting for “scientists” to announce that they can tell from foetal DNA, who might grow up advocating for abortion. Then all those hate-filled twats can be aborted and the world be on its way to becoming heaven on earth.
Have you noticed that anti-abortionist are always religious? Why do judgemental religious lunatics want to judge others for the choices they make? Why should the public (who are agnostic or atheist) listen to people who are essentially delusional (have you read any Richard Dawkins for fucks sake?!). Why do delusional people have a greater insight into this subject than the rest of us?
It seems simple really. People have sex (yes catholic fucktards they do) when they are too young to do so (shocking eh?) and unprotected (eek!) and get knocked up – This even happens to “nice” girls from “nice” middle class families! (Oh My God!! – Sorry I “blasphemed”). So abortions become necessary. How ever you look at it it’s not nice (in the end it’s a denial of life) but what would you rather have kids born and abandoned or the return of backroom abortions with coathanger??!!
Guido I am suprised you have been sucked into an attempt by what are usually American religious nutters who want to judge and control peoples private lives.
“Scientists” have recently come up with what the rest of us have known all along. Funny how they do seem to do that all the time isn’t it? Anyway, seems some real humans shagged a few Neanderthal’s way back when and I’d suggest the Neanderthal gene’s are most strongest in people like you, and the rest of your obnoxious tribe so if you want to fuck whoever you feel like, in the streets and under hedges then abort the condequences go ahead, but don’t try to drag those of us who believe that human nature is called to higher things into your nightmare and whats more, expect us share the costs and guilt trip.
As for Guido, I’m with him all the way, including when he re-assembles his team for another go at what he didn’t quite manage to pull off in 1605.
Girl X; She was asking for it. so she was…