Sky News call this a “Leaders Event” instead of a debate. It’s 20 minutes with Beth Rigby followed by 25 minutes with the Grimsby-based audience. Lots were drawn, Starmer is going first…
Guido will give you live updates below:
UPDATE: That’s it done. Starmer did better than in the ITV head-to-head. Sunak had a battle or two with questioners. Guido can’t feel the dial shifting…
Questioner says Sunak is moving party from younger voters and that’s the key democratic for the future. Sunak says national service is positive, stamp duty cut positive, apprenticeships positive, tax cut positive, society isn’t us versus them and young people have grandparents. A bit of an argument between them…
Interruptor: Are you going to let 18 year olds just say no? Sunak says he won’t give young people criminal records for refusing to do it, he will set up Royal Commission to ensure there’s an appropriate mix of incentives and sanctions. When you talk to young people in Europe the ones who recommend it and love it are high.
Sunak says he’s excited for his girls to do it, to some laughter. He says it will foster culture of service and people have been positively talking about it. Another big policy is curbing investment into ripoff degrees. Brings up the house-buying policies again.
Next question: national service. Does Sunak have young people’s best interests at heart.
He says Starmer doesn’t have a plan but he does. He’ll reverse net zero changes, isn’t matching triple lock plus – who is more likely to deliver for you?
Interruptor – should we vote for Reform? He says no, that’ll put Starmer in No 10. To some applause…
PM responds: those rules were difficult for everyone to follow and he apologised at the time. It was a tough time for the country. Trust takes time to rebuild through action and he’s been restoring economic stability etc. Manifesto is direction of travel for the future.
Questioner says that picture of Elizabeth II left on her own while parties were going on is where the trust broke down. Public has long memory. He has to realise there’s a long way to go.
Sunak thanks her for her previous service to the party. He says he made a mistake to leave D-Day and that he’s asking for forgiveness. There is a veterans minister because he cares deeply about it. This election is about the future and they have a plan for a more secure future for everybody. Taxes, pensioners, net zero, all things that make up the choice at the election.
Next question: Tory party chairman turned undecided voter. Sunak left Cameron at D-Day. How does he plan to rebuild the public’s trust in him?
Questioner pushes him on the systemic point. It’s not just bad apples. Sunak says the Met bit again.
Sunak points out to interruptor that police numbers are at a record high.
Sunak says those things have no place, especially in police. That things they’ve read and seen in the last few years have been terrible from small minority of people. Says Met in particular has issues. They’ve commissioned a report that is getting worked through. Putting more police on the street and sorting sentencing.
Next question on policing: systemic racism, sexism, misogyny. Does he accept that the problems are systemic, what will he do to increase trust?
Sunak says he disagrees and that care can be improved by doing things outside of hospitals to get tests and checks faster, and that pharmacies should be used for treatment which is a good change they have made.
Sunak says more funds getting invested. Elective surgical hubs, diagnostic centres supported by government. Interruptor brings up shortgages and says that building another building is not going to cure the problem. Applause there…
Questioner brings up Covid-era rules (including Rishi opening up) and blames them, as well as Brexit, for NHS problems.
Sunak says he comes from NHS family. Says for decades staff training has been too bad. Workforce plan is what he’s introduced. He won’t be here in the 14 years it takes to train a consultant but he’s funding it.
Next question: NHS staff member and patient says post-Brexit shortages are bad. Waiting lists never end. Retention is bad. He’s been left in corridor for eight hours. How will Sunak restore it?
Sunak asks how old the child is (19). Says he wants everyone to be able to own their own home and that interest rates need to come down, which is why he prioritised inflation, which is down back to normal. In the manifesto there are things that will help daughter – stamp duty abolition for first time buyers. Alongside a new version of help to buy to get a home with just a 5% deposit, which is often the trickiest element. Cut taxes and build homes.
First question: Following Truss’ budget, mortgages much less affordable. Why has government spoilt hopes and dreams and why believe they won’t do it again?
Audience questions.
Rigby raises the spectre of “Dishy Rishi” can you tell people something that will make them like you more? Sunak says his diet is full of sugar and that it’s very unhealthy, despite people thinking that he’s healthy. Sugar fiend…
Sunak says two once-in-a-century costs have had a huge toll. But the election is about the future and a corner is turned. Change only comes with a plan.
“Isn’t the truth that you’ve broken promises?” Brexit, migration, NHS, levelling up. Catalogue of broken promises. Can you see why many voters think it’s time for you to get your P45?
Rigby tries to push him on taxes as a proportion of national income falling – he refuses and names taxes that he will lower.
Rigby points out again that tax burden will still rise under Tory plans over next Parliament. Sunak says taxes will go down. Some jeers from audience…
Sunak says he’s bringing down taxes for people at every stage of their lives to build financial security. He says that we’re in a position to cut taxes now thanks to economic stability.
Rigby points out that tax burden will still be higher under a future Tory government despite tax cuts. Sunak says that analysis sounds not right.
Sunak touts record again. Says numbers will keep coming down. Rigby taunts him with 1.9 million figure again.
Sunak says forecast is for numbers to halve and migration cap will bring them down further. Doesn’t name a figure (because he wouldn’t decide it).
Sunak says it’s too high. What he can tell people is what he’s done since he’s had the job and that he’s started to bring the numbers down by 10% last year and the number of visas issued this year is down by a quarter. Heading in the right direction. Abuse of social care visa stopped and salary threshold raised.
Now onto legal migration. Rigby says people voted for Brexit to take back control. Rigby says 1.9 million people have come in last three years and the number in the three years before Brexit vote was 836,000 people. Exclamations of “wow” from one or two people…
Sunak says election is important moment and that it’s needed to discuss future of country. He has a plan on migration and Starmer doesn’t have a plan.
Why call an election before the flights? Audience likes that one…
Sunak says Rwanda is a deterrent, that’s how they’ll stop the boats. Applause on that one…
Small boats – also going up. Sunak says numbers went down last year. Rigby points out they’re 40% higher this year than the same time last year. Sunak says if you look at the sum total the numbers are down. Rigby hits back that it’s a record year this year.
Sunak says that except junior doctors all other strikes have been resolved. Rigby copies Starmer’s maths joke from last debate on waiting lists to applause…
Loud boo from audience when junior doctor mentioned.
NHS waiting lists pledge. 7.2 to 7.5 million. Sunak says they’ve not made as much progress as they would have liked. It’s proved more difficult from a number of reasons. We are now making progress and it’s 200,000 lower than a few months ago.
National debt pledge – that’s gone up. Sunak says it was always meant to go down over time, to laughter. Rigby points out it’s higher now. Sunak says he didn’t say it would go down overnight. He says when he made the pledge it was clear that it would be according to independent body. Getting bogged down over the specifics here…
Interruptor: Sunak says what he was doing was focussing on making things that little bit easier.
Onto pledges. One and two have been done. He says the most important was the first one – inflation. Seeing the impact on bills the burden had to be eased. It wasn’t a given and we’re now ahead of our competitors.
Truss’ legacy: Sunak says – “what did I do”? He disagreed with her policies and that’s who he is as a person. He says it was difficult and he was talking about what was right for the country – he was right then, he’s right now.
Sunak says what he can do is work as hard as he can and that particularly on the economy wages are rising and inflation is down. He wants to build on that and continue the progress made. And to protect pensions.
For voters Tories are the turmoil – Rigby rattles through high turnover to a bit of laughter. How do we know if you won the election that you’d still be PM in a year? Laughter…
Was D-Day as bad as the mini-budget? Sunak says he’s deeply sad people were hurt and that he apologised. He says he apologised to veterans. And that he’s committed to making this country the best in the world to be a veteran. Rigby asks how it felt: he says he felt sad and upset. Says veteran minister is important.
Sunak says it’s been tough, they’ve turned a corner and that things are getting better and he’ll keep fighting hard up until the election.
Poll says neck and neck with Reform – it’s like Truss’ last days.
Sunak in the chair.
That’s the end of Starmer. No election-losing gaffe there…
Starmer says he understands the challenges set out. Says he uses his ears, and points at one of them. He’ll “mull things over” in his mind when people tell them to him. He says good quality high skilled jobs are needed like the ones he saw in Hull. Build enough houses to get people on the housing ladder.
Next question: Young people know nothing but austerity and chaos. Brexit, tax rate due to student loans. How can you convince us that you’ll be different and improve trust?
Starmer says he worked in CPS and in Northern Ireland – he wants to serve the public. That’s why he decided to go into politics. He is asked if he’s changed. He says he’s clearer in his own mind that the country must come first and party politics first. He says it’s a result of coming into politics late – he’s “not tribally political“. Like when Blair went on that his Dad was a Tory…
Next question: He’s formed into more of a political robot than someone he likes – how can he convince people to vote for him. Long umm from Keir there…
Starmer says he has a private dentist.
Starmer says they have to fix it and they would make money available for 700,000 urgent appointments in NHS dentistry. Incentives for newly-qualified dentists to convince them to go public.
Next question: Woman’s NHS dentist practice went private and forced people out. How would he fix crisis and stop dentists “going to the greed of private?”
Argument: it means you will tax working parents, says the questioner. Starmer says the tax break is just being removed, it’s not the introduction of a new tax. He won’t tolerate that there aren’t enough teachers.
He says it’s a tough political choice and that he doesn’t think a lot of kids will go to state school as a result.
Starmer says he has nothing against private schools. Says that everyone has aspirations for their children and that state secondary schools have thousands of teachers missing. It’s not a one or two-year “budgeting” problem for state school kids – they need to recruit teachers for those schools. A bit of a snipe…
Next question: Private school parent says his choice saves government £7,500 per year. He’ll be priced out. It increases influx in state schools. It’s the ones who can’t afford VAT rise who will make the change. Will you reconsider taxing private education?
Starmer says government is chaotic and divided – is there another period in history when everything got into a worse state than when it started? The government should be booted out.
Starmer says the 35% can’t be afforded but that he’ll sit down in a room and negotiate. But he won’t just say that he’ll accept that demand from the other side.
“We’d roll up our sleeves, get in the room… as soon as we get some grown up politics in this country”. Rigby asks if he’ll accept their pay claim.
Starmer says the strikes are a bad thing and that he sympathises with just about everyone.
Next question: Newly qualified doctor worries about exits from profession. Scotland and Wales have agreed to raise pay – when will it happen in England?
Says they have already got ready to kick off on day one to bring about change.
Starmer says he needs to “release” resources. Mentions potholes. Says nurseries will be built around schools.
If taxes aren’t going up, how are you going to fund it?Applause there too…
Starmer says she’s right about challenges people are facing. Cost of living crisis, health etc. He’s struck by the ambition in Grimsby and that they want a government to match that ambition. A government that partners with local people – changing planning rules, dealing with potholes, create conditions for businesses to thrive, mentions offshore wind in Grimsby and that supply chains should be local. Says he wants to come here and roll up sleeves rather than sit a long way away. Applause after that one…
First question: Child poverty, social housing, foodbanks – how will Labour address inequalities and improve outcomes for disadvantaged?
Now moving onto audience questions.
He says he has no doubt that he’s up to the job. An audience member interrupts to ask him. He says they’ll be working the morning after the election.
What does he fear the most? He fears for his family – teenage kids at a difficult age. The fear is the impact it’s going to have on them.
Starmer asked about personality – what can he say to change people’s lives? Starmer says he’s dedicated his life to service. That’s why he came into politics. Says his wife was ringing adverts in the papers. Says Vic didn’t want him to go into politics and wanted him to be a well-paid lawyer instead.
Starmer says people are fed up with politicians who say they will do everything. He says he’ll tell people what he can and can’t do.
Onto child benefits and the two-child cap. Many have called for it to go. Is it on the manifesto? No, Starmer says, and brings up record of last Labour government. Rigby points out it costs £1.4 billion. Starmer hits back – huge damage done to economy, everything will be broken, he won’t make promises he can’t keep.
Rigby asks if he’s be personally happy to pay more tax. He says yes and he accepts he makes a lot of money. Toolmaker line is met with laughter…
Rigby brings up the interview where Starmer suggested he was looking at wealth taxes to raise. Starmer says “we’re not looking at wealth taxes… Have a look at the manifesto.”
Rigby says what about capital gains tax? Is that not attractive? Starmer says it’s not in the manifesto. No ruling out there either…
Starmer rattles off lines about family working in the NHS.
Fuel duty? Starmer says they’ve supported the freeze but doesn’t say he will continue to freeze it: “budget by budget” is the line.
Rigby pushes on council tax re-evaluation. Starmer says he doesn’t want to raise tax. No answer there…
What about council tax? Rigby brings in the Welsh example.
Rigby says he’s not ruling out further tax rises to a bit of protestation from Starmer with his usual lines.
Rigby points out to the audience that means: I might raise taxes. Applause on that one…
He says it’s a plan for growth. But he refuses to rule out tax rises above ones that haven’t been set out. “None needed in the plans we’ve set out in our manifesto”. Politicking…
Starmer says the Tories aren’t in a position to lecture on tax. To applause…
Rigby says he’ll raise specific taxes – oil and gas, private equity etc. Are the Tories right to say he’ll go further?
He says all Labour leaders have raised taxes – he has a plan for wealth creation instead. He won’t do what other Labour leaders have done.
Starmer responds: all tax plans are fully costed and fully funded – “we won’t raise taxes on working people” and lists the ones they won’t raise. No mention of CGT there…
A pledge he can afford to do is raise taxes on top 5% of earners, says Rigby – why did you ditch it?
Do you think they’re wrong in principle? Starmer says the country first mantra guided him. Then talks about changing energy policy – nationalisation would be too expensive. “I changed my mind.”
Beth brings up the leadership pledges. Asks if he wrote them. He says yes and that most of them are still in place. To a bit of laughter as Rigby points out he’s dropped six or seven…
Starmer brings up Northern Ireland police service and CPS. Says he changed both of them and that he stands on his record.
Beth points out again that he said Corbyn would be a great PM. Starmer repeats the same line. There’s been muttering from the audience on this one…
Starmer refuses to say whether he meant it when he said Jeremy would be a great PM.
Challenged on Jeremy Corbyn claims. Says he was certain that they would lose 2019 despite campaigning for Labour.
He says there isn’t a trust issue because it’s country first. He wants this time round to put a party in front of people that is credible.
Beth asks about Starmer’s U-Turns on pretty much everything. How can the people trust what you say? Starmer says the 2019 loss was bad and that he concluded he should listen to the electorate. He looked at the party, not the voters, for change. He has put the party back in the service of working people. Country first, party first has guided him.
Speaking on Times Radio, former Home Secretary David Blunkett spoke about overdiagnosis of mental problems:
“Let’s distinguish those who are really severely mentally ill, diagnosed with things that require prolonged medical and diagnostic treatment. My wife and I talk about this a lot, because she’s a retired GP, about the fact that you can be sad without being ill. You can be momentarily depressed because your boyfriend or girlfriend’s just thrown you and you’re not mentally ill. You can even have mild issues, which can be dealt with with the right kind of support, but it doesn’t make you mentally ill. So we’ve got a real task, I think, to get the psychology, if you like, of this over. But there are things where you definitely need medical intervention, and there are other things where you need good friends, you need good connectivity, and you need a job.”
