It’s the final leaders debate tonight, hosted by the BBC in Nottingham. Mishal Husain is running affairs. The BBC says the audience members have been chosen by Savanta and they include equal numbers of Conservative and Labour voters, as well as undecided voters. No Reform voters then?
The debate can be consumed on BBC One, on radio, online and on iPlayer. CCHQ’s Twitter account has rebranded as “Tax Check UK” in a hark back to 2019’s shenanigans. YouGov will provide a snap poll afterwards. Guido brings you live text-based updates below as usual…
UPDATE: That’s proceedings over. No more Sunak vs Starmer…
UPDATE II: YouGov snap poll: 50/50 draw.
- Time up.
- Starmer says “that is a lie.” My message to you is simple. If you want NHS back, growing economy, more police and teachers and to end 14 years of Tory chaos. You have to vote for it. Vote change.
- 30 second final thoughts. Sunak first: I understand why you’re frustrated with me and party. This isn’t a by-election. Think about what Labour government would mean. Can you afford to pay £2,000 in tax? Don’t surrender to Labour.
- Starmer says he’s determined for people to fulfil their dreams. Sunak says grandparents came here with very little. His story wouldn’t be possible in any other country. His mission starts with young people, that’s why he wants to cut taxes.
- Sunak says everyone remembers buying first home. He aspires to everyone having that. It’s too hard to buy own home. Two practical specific things is new form of help to buy. Plus abolishing stamp duty for first time buyers.
- Question: Student says young people have lost hope and are leaving UK to go to Australia and Dubai. What will you do to make me stay? Starmer says Labour will ensure good well-skilled jobs will be here in UK, plus housebuilding to restore dream of home ownership. Low mortgage deposit scheme. Sunak has taken down targets for housebuilding.
- Starmer says Sunak is most liberal PM on migration. Sunak says new visas down 40% and numbers getting down sharply, plus legal cap in Parliament on migration. Starmer opposes all of that.
- There are lines I won’t cross, says Starmer. He won’t insult the questioner by saying everything is fine, and Sunak doesn’t understand because he is out of touch.
- Sunak says Starmer is not being straight on what it will cost.
- Starmer insists that freedom of movement won’t be accepted. He’s not a defeatist like the PM. He’s fighting for a better deal so that economy can succeed. Give and take means give and take, though…
- Starmer says £46 billion is cost of NI cut. How will NHS and pensioners get the money lost from that? Starmer says most people don’t think Brexit is going well. We’ve left and we aren’t going back but we can get better deal than the one we have. Better trading, R&D, and security deal. Sunak says free movement is price of a better trading deal. That’s what Starmer is not being straight about. Windsor Framework and Horizon Programme he’s done – more migrants through the back door under Starmer.
- Question: jazz vinyl record business-owner. 90% of business with Europe lost since Brexit. How to mend broken trading relationship? Sunak says he is sorry things have been difficult, doing lots of things around the world. Two specific things – cutting taxes on small retailers, especially business rates. Abolition of self-employed NI.
- Starmer says legislation for safe spaces has been there for years. Don’t use issue as political football.
- Sunak says that Starmer hounded Duffield. He gets that not everyone will agree with his position. You have to change the act to protect women’s spaces.
- Starmer says politics shouldn’t be used to divide people. PM should bring people together to make the country less divided. Tories have tried to find the points of difference and division over the years.
- Starmer says Sunak made a trans joke in the Commons while mother of murdered trans teen was there. Sunak says that’s not what happened. Sunak says that Starmer won’t change the law so that sex means biological sex, so he knows that the change won’t actually happen.
- Starmer says record in CPS proves his worth on this one. A certain number of people are born into a gender they don’t identify with, they should be treated with dignity and respect. A whoop from the audience…
- GRCs raised. Sunak says Starmer has not pledged to change Equality Act because he is not sure that sex means biological sex, which is needed to protect single sex spaces. Applause…
- Sunak says that he has two young daughters. As a dad he wants them to grow up in a safe country with the health that they need.
- Question: How can I ensure you will put women’s interests first? Starmer says in his team he has good strong women who will deliver for the country. Reeves. Rayner. Yvette Cooper. Phillipson. Leadership is about empowering team on the pitch to bat and work together. He isn’t one with all the answers. Country first, party second.
- Husain asks if they’re aware of voters’ frustrations. Sunak says there’s a choice for everyone and you need a plan to deliver change. We will become soft touch of Europe for migrants under Labour – that’s the change that is coming. Starmer: grand promises of undeliverable promises won’t work. Ordinary “working class” style hope is needed. We have to return politics to service.
- Starmer says he worked with police in NI to set out change there and gain confidence as part of peace process. Then he ran CPS for five years. He delivered there. 14 awful years. Nothing works well. Most people don’t feel better off. Another 5 years of Sunak, this won’t change. Rebuild country and public services with Labour.
- Sunak says last few years have been tough. But inflation is down, fastest growing economy in G7, rising wages. Economic stability – this is the journey we are now on. Choice is about the future now.
- Question: Sunak made fair job of chancellor, mediocre PM. Starmer has strings pulled by senior members of Labour Party. Are you two really the best that we’ve got to be PM? Strong applause there…
- Starmer clarifies that councils will get no more money. He says he doesn’t have a wand. Sunak says that his first job was local government minister. He wants to roll out more family hubs. Nottingham, Birmingham, bankrupt under Labour. They bankrupt places and people are now paying 20% higher council tax in Birmingham. Husain points out Tory councils in same issue. Starmer jumps on that. Sunak says your taxes will be whacked up under Labour.
- Question: How will you help councils? Nottingham brought up. Starmer says it’s concerning, a position of councils of all political stripes due to lack of properly structured funding from government. Labour would change the way that payments are made. Longer term payments. Stopping no-fault evictions is also needed.
- “Liz Truss Mk.2” is what Starmer labels Sunak.
- Starmer prompted if he will change policy and copy Tory pension one. Starmer says the audience knows what he wants to say and that the position on pensions and tax is the same as the position as the government at last budget. Sunak doesn’t have money to pay for it.
- Sunak says economy is doing well. He wants to cut taxes, taxes are coming under Labour. Every pensioner should know that state pensions will be subject to retirement tax under Labour. “Be very worried“.
- Starmer says that Sunak urged people to “unite behind” Truss. Husain points out: “you know what it’s like to unite behind the leader of your party” Applause there and a laugh from Sunak…
- Husain says IFS is accusing parties of a conspiracy of silence – spending cuts or tax hikes needed. Sunak says that IFS also agrees that welfare is key issue. He says he argued against Truss, people can trust him that bills will go up under Labour with tax. This is why Starmer can’t rule out tax rises.
- Starmer says that everything in the manifesto is about creating growth and has clear columns setting out how much plans will cost and where that money is going to come from. We’ve been missing economic stability in recent years. Unfunded tax cuts were the Truss experiment. Mortgage argument. Starmer raises Hunt “already been spent” attack again.
- Sunak says welfare savings will pay for stuff like triple lock plus, stamp duty abolition for first time buyers and expanding child benefit.
- Question: where is the money going to come from for promises?
- Free movement was supported by Starmer, says Sunak: “Don’t surrender our borders to him.”
- Starmer says the difference between him and Sunak is that he was in CPS, taking down criminal gangs, strategising etc.
- Sunak says that when Starmer ran for the Labour leadership he promised to close migrant detention centres and getting migrants more welfare. Starmer says smash the gangs.
- Starmer says Sunak is “literally making it up” as he prompts him on whether all 50,000 will be sent to Rwanda.
- Now they are bickering. Husain points out that “processed” means they will likely be given asylum. Starmer says the fact that they are not processed means that can’t be sent back. Sunak says: are you going to do a deal with the Taliban to send people back? Applause on that one…
- Starmer pressured: what will you do with illegal migrants in the UK. Starmer says it would take 300 years to send arrivals to Rwanda. Migrants are not being processed and are sitting in hotels. That’s absurd. We’ve got to process the claims.
- Sunak reads testimonials from migrants saying that they are staying in France until Rwanda plan is killed. Starmer says record numbers are under Tory watch. Only a few hundred will go on flights to Rwanda and there are tens of thousands coming in. A few hundred every year means you have a 99% chance of not going to Rwanda. That is what the gangs are saying. That is not a deterrent. Starmer points out that Sunak has called an election instead of testing his plan…
- Sunak says progress has been made but you need a deterrent. Rwanda plan is how you solve the problem. Migrants will be out on the streets under Starmer. Applause there…
- Question: Why can’t we close our borders? Starmer says small boat arrivals are biggest threat, record numbers under the Tories. It’s a national security issue. Smash the gangs. Record taking down terrorist gangs.
- Starmer says 40,000 extra NHS appointments a week will allow people to get back into the economy to grow it. Sunak says what Starmer isn’t saying is that most of the people we are talking about aren’t on an NHS waiting list. We have to be stricter on eligibility criteria. Sunak promises he will deliver on it.
- Sunak gets more applause for saying that Starmer has nothing to say about the future.
- Sunak hits back – there will be higher benefit claimant numbers under Labour and that’s why he won’t deliver tax cuts. Loudest applause yet for that one…
- Starmer says businesses have a supportive scheme to get people back into work and make transition. Labour would put it into place. Starmer says Sunak has raised tax 26 times, no one has raised more tax than him. Husain pressures him on getting benefit claimant numbers down. He says job centre changes and that supportive scheme – waiting lists situation needs to be improved. He says it’s government’s responsibility.
- Starmer is asked: what’s wrong with what Sunak says? He says there’s nothing wrong with that – Sunak says “you opposed it”. Starmer says if he listened to more people he might not be so out of touch. To applause…
- Next question: I’ve worked but have had to stop due to illness. How can candidates ensure we aren’t punished by benefit sanctions? Sunak says passionate benefits system is what he believes in, points to furlough. But people need to be supported into work if they can do. Too many being signed off as not fit to work. If they have been offered jobs that they can do but don’t take them, that has to be stopped. System needs to be tightened up.
- Sunak says there is a clear choice – lower taxes and lower welfare with Tories. People are better off in work, purpose and dignity. The number out of work is too high, up 60% in the last few years. He made a speech a few months ago, has a plan to reform the welfare system to be stricter, which is fairer. When he announced it Starmer and Labour opposed every single thing because they think you can’t save a penny in the welfare bill.
- Starmer says waiting lists are catastrophic under this government. To applause…
- Next question: How to get more people off benefits and into work? Starmer says he agrees that work is about dignity. He says his dad worked in a factory. He owned it…
- Husain says there is a protest outside, which is an “aspect of democracy”. Would be great if it was a little quieter…
- The Telegraph’s audio of Darren Jones saying that net zero policies will cost “hundreds of billions” referenced by Sunak. Starmer says they’ve set out exactly how much it will cost in the manifesto. Investors will come alongside government money. So Labour will spend a few billion and companies will foot the other hundreds of billions?
- Sunak points out that Hunt asked Reeves if she will rule out tax rises, which she refused to do.
- Sunak says leadership means being straight with people. Not everyone is going to agree with him but at least they know where he stands. People should not surrender their family finances to Labour. Starmer says “ridiculous” and that he won’t raise the taxes that he’s already said he won’t raise. Starmer claims Hunt has admitted that money has already been raised for Tory promises to it is a return to Trussian impropriety.
- Starmer asked if he knows if anyone else apart from his candidate has placed bets. He says he has made it clear that he expects high standards in politics and he said last week that their feet would not leave the floor if they were found to have fallen below them. When asked again if he knows that they haven’t placed bets Starmer insists on swerving…
- Sunak says it was important to deal with matters properly which he has done after internal inquiry. Starmer is not being upfront and honest, he is without conviction. Question is about doing what you say. Starmer has changed his mind on everything. He is not being straight with people. Starmer scoffs: “absolutely ridiculous”…
- Sunak: I was as angry as anyone, anyone who has broken the rules should be booted out of the party. Starmer says you have to lead from the front and politics is too much about self-entitlement, he wants to reset politics to public service. The instinct to make money is the wrong one. Partygate, PM was convicted and fined for breaking rules he imposed. Covid contracts wasted. Starmer suspended gambling candidate within minutes.
- A protestor can be heard outside.
- First question: Integrity, people are dismayed at the lack of it. How would you restore trust in politics?
- Husain introduction. There will be 75 minutes of debate…
- The event is on Nottingham Trent University’s campus. You can see broadcasters sweating in the extremely hot spin room…
