AN: But was Labour still borrowing too much when the financial crash, which they didn’t cause, but were they still borrowing too much when it came about, as Andy Burnham is now saying?

TW: Look I know the point you’re taking, there is a discussion within the party about whether when the crash came about, whether there was a small surplus or whether we were running a deficit. Frankly, and yes people said we should be running a small surplus. Frankly that isn’t related to the banking failure.

AN: That wasn’t my question. I accept that. I didn’t say you caused the crash. Should you have had a tighter fiscal position at the time the crash came?

TW: Let me just say, the reason I’m making this point and coming back to you on that, is people say that the banking crisis, the attack the Tories made on us is because we were running a deficit. Because we were running a deficit that led to the banking crisis.

AN: You and I both said two times each, that is four times we’ve said it isn’t the case, I am asking a different question, were you borrowing too much when the crash, which you didn’t cause, came?

TW: I personally don’t think we were.