July 18th, 2014

WATCH: Cameron Statement on Ukraine Plane Crash


150 Comments

  1. 1
    Anonymous says:

    Can someone tell every single news channel that the black box recorders are not going to tell anyone who actually shot the plane down. All they will confirm is the time the plane was hit, it’s altitude, speed, heading and any ATC instructions.

    It’s not as if there’s going to be a voice recording of the pilots saying “that looks like a BUK missile fired by Russian separatists heading our way.”

  2. 2
    Tachybaptus says:

    What business is it of Cameron’s? We don’t care what he thinks.

  3. 3
    Toxic Labour for Spongers, Scroungers, Parasites, Criminals, Layabouts & other Wasters says:

    Labour are already trying to figure out if there is a tax angle here.

  4. 4
    Bluto says:

    He’s the babbling uber-pundit of the UK with an opinion about everything.

    it’s not a “crash” it’s a shoot-down, war crime and mass murder. It’s not a “tragedy” either. It’s an atrocity.

  5. 5
    Paniagua says:

    Cameron will do something about it if he is reelected with a majority.

  6. 6
    PC Dixon says:

    So what do you suggest – Ask Milliband? Fat lot go good that would be

  7. 7
    Blue Peter Goldfish says:

    “get to the bottom of this”, is he confusing this incident with… Oh never mind!.

  8. 8
    Are there no limits to the gay brigade's attacks on Russia? says:

    https://twitter.com/b_judah/status/490083845539385344

  9. 9
    the hand of god says:

    So an aircraft full of AIDS riddled dutchmen falls out of the sky
    who cares ?
    Unless they fell into my garden I dont care
    Cameron was probably on first name terms with most of them

  10. 10
    Meanwhile back on Planet Zog says:

  11. 11
    Look on the bright side says:

    At least his surname is not Dune.

  12. 12
    the hand of god says:

    I hope Elton John was aboard along with his “husband”

  13. 13
    You Idiot says:

    it’s called being Prime Minister!

  14. 14
    the hand of god says:

    There you are on your death bed and Dianne riceanpea Abutt turns up to gorge on your fruit
    More morphine please DR

  15. 15
    They vbreally are twisting this into an attack on Gayers says:

  16. 16
    concrete pump says:

    I bet you’re a fucking hoot at dinner parties.

  17. 17
    Put her out of our misery, please. says:

    I think I can see the real reason she’s worried about ‘assisted dying’.

  18. 18
    Duty Pędant says:

    To be fair research does not mean riddled !

  19. 19
    Scrote says:

    He will. He will look very grave and serious, indeed.
    Oh yes.

  20. 20
    The Gay Plague says:

    I’m back to wipe out the rest of you bumsexers.

  21. 21
    Fatbott is RIGHT says:

    I am one of her most fiercest critics but that is now TWICE she has been in the right this week. First was the emergency state snooper’s charter and now this, State legalised killing.

  22. 22
    the hand of god says:

    Lets all show our humanity by blowing up thousands of afghans and arming noble ISIS fighters in wicked Syria
    How can these politcos keep a straight face?

  23. 23
    Dave Cameron. Todays Statesman says:

    In his fucking tiny bumsex addled brain.

  24. 24
    Dr Dävid Kēllÿ says:

    I think it been legal for a while.

  25. 25
    Bluto says:

    That’s the last thing it is.

  26. 26
    Owen Jones says:

    Guys i have a confession i’ve always had a thing for Simon Cowell

  27. 27
    the hand of god says:

    “research” of the Pete Townsend variety ?

    Who wants to spend their days examining excrement , and talking to queens and Africans?
    PERVERTS!

  28. 28
    Scrote says:

    The important question is, ‘What would Mandiba have thought about assisted dying?’

    Would he have approved of BUKs at 35,000’? I think that is a question for all of us.

  29. 29
    Take a deep Breath and stand back says:

    You have no evidence that it was a “shoot down” and it sounds like Dave doesn’t yet either.

    Then if it was a shoot down. Who shot it down? And even more pertinent, why was a civilian aircraft sent through a war zone where aircraft are shot down almost every day?

  30. 30
    the hand of god says:

    Excellent 1 thats half of parliament wiped out then

    I have fond memories of the days when it was impossible to watch the television without seeing a male fashion designer i n a hospital bed weighing 70llbs with his life ebbing away to show tunes

    Nostalgia

  31. 31

    Two major stories at the moment the downed jet and Is ray el in Gaza. What do sky do when their is a choice between down town Gaza and Amsterdam. They send that air headed bimbo Burley to bloody Amsterdam

  32. 32
    adverts before political statements says:

    So Guido prefers a shower of adverts to be shown before the prime minister makes a statement. What’s next from Guido? What a trougher.

    30 second advert before making blog statements available.
    Interruptions every 30 seconds for an advert .

    or do as Digger does for The Times and The Sun with monthly subscriptions.
    Request BBC does like.

  33. 33
    the hand of god says:

    So have I
    its a nylon noose!

    He only wears those stupid pants as he keeps a small boy down the back of them

  34. 34
    Col. Nut says:

    You should thing a thong for him.

  35. 35
    Mycroft says:

    Correct.

    Plus autonomous BUKs do not fire singly, they are set to fire in pairs, a 777 would need a pair to down it if the missiles were proximity charged (almost invariably) to shatter the planes surfaces.

    I haven’t heard any ‘eye-witnesses’ yet (if there are any) but if anyone mentions hearing two loud bangs then that is fairly conclusive of an Autonomous BUK, single explosion and it’s a coordinated 4-pack BUK that then defaults to a single missile due to the enhanced accuracy.

    The 777 crew and passengers will have known almost nothing about the explosion (the missile and shrapnel) is all supersonic and the decompression with oxygen loss would mean no-one would have been aware of the problem before passing out.

    But in the last 6-7000ft of the fall those alive will regain some degree of conciousness and that is the real horror, this sort of disintegration will mean that probably half of them will have regained consciousness and those 30 seconds before impact will have real terror in it.

    At Lockerbie two girls/women were found still in their seats, hugging each other…

    A devilish act of human origin…

  36. 36
    Col. Nut says:

    There are no flies on Cameron, especially when Adam Boulton’s outside number 10.

  37. 37
    More than one Abbott says:

    It was one of Abbotts relatives who toppled over the Costa Concordia Cruise Ship when they moved to one side of the ship.

  38. 38
    Fly from Soup says:

    the bloke sitting on the wing riding shotgun should have told them that

  39. 39
    geordieboy says:

    You need treatment ASAP.

  40. 40
    Wrong Time, wrong place. says:

    More than likely that no one wanted to bring down a full civilian aircraft and it is an innocent casualty of war.

    But why was it directed through that area in the first place? It should not have been put on that course.

  41. 41
    M­a­­q­b­o­­ul says:

    The impacts will be recorded on the black box, until they are deleted by Moscow.

  42. 42
    Aircraft Spotter says:

    Civilian passenger aitcraft fly through warzones every day unless there is a specific NOTAM. 15 out of 16 major Asian carriers were using the same sir corridor. Saying it was specifically routed into danger is pure nonsense.

  43. 43
    Fly from Soup says:

    we fired rockets at the local public lav in our youth – cleared them out in no time at all – if that!

  44. 44
    M­a­­q­b­o­­ul says:

    The recording of the commander who shot it down was not evidence? Nice try Ivan, but you’ll have to work harder for them roubles.

  45. 45
    Fly from Soup says:

    buy GSK!

  46. 46
    Norfolk's Finest says:

    I heard an interview last night with a local who said he heard a couple of bangs and then the explosion.

    Also, the black box may not reveal the source of the missile, but it will record the sensors in the aircraft that would allow investigators to piece together the likely type of blast pattern – i.e. did the right side of the plane get hit by the missile bursting in the air or did the engine explode instantly upon missile contact, or was a wing hit and did the plane spiral down, etc… The cascade of of failure vs total immediate failure of everything will tell a story.

  47. 47
    Anonymous says:

    Yep. Massive explosive decompression so hopefully none of those on board would have known anything about it.

    Heard the same thing about the Lockerbie bombing. I try to imagine that no one would have regained consciousness.

  48. 48
    Mycroft says:

    The use of upper atmosphere ballistics is rare in civil wars, the objective is usually fighter-bomber attack at sub 5000ft, usually 1000ft, so the arms used all work in that zone.

    Anything that extends beyond the 20000ft zone has to be a serious bit of kit with huge costs and very limited application, insurgents are unlikely to spend the million of £s on just one unit.

    If you nick one then none of us would be able to fire it for a few weeks, it is a brick-wall technology, you have to follow a sequence and just pressing the fire button won’t let the missile go.

    Each procedure has to be adhered to exactly and there are four main sequences prior to firing, stumble even slightly and the system locks you out and you begin again, but you then need a command code to do that.

    This is not a “Whoops! it was an accident Gov!” matter, I could give anyone here a BUK and all would sit there will it entirely safe, for weeks probably as you tried and repeatedly failed to set one off.

    In fact I doubt if you were untrained you’d ever set one off.

    This was a purposeful act, no twitch on a trigger, no distracted accident.

  49. 49

    There’s going to be endless recriminations about the course of the plane, for sure. But the source of the missile, no matter what it is, is going to have profound geo-political consequences one way or the other.

  50. 50
    Aircraft Spotter says:

    15 out of 16 major Asian carriers were using the same air corridor. It’s a well used flight path, there is no evidence the plane had it’s flightpath altered.

  51. 51
    geordieboy says:

    There would be if he stuck his finger up his arse and held it up in the air.

  52. 52

    Of course it’s his business – when there are British nationals on board.

    In years past, this sort of thing would have been casus belli. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that now.

  53. 53
    Wrong Time, wrong place. says:

    Never said it had.

  54. 54

    Indeed, this was a purposeful act. The important part is to determine where the missile came from. With that knowledge, one way or the other, the whole geopolitical landscape in the area will change.

  55. 55

    Re Elton John, whatever you think of him, that was a repellant comment.

  56. 56
    Mycroft says:

    It will list a series of reports on the damage to the kinematics of the wings and surfaces and that sequence of reports will say from what direction they came from and give a good trajectory read-out of the shrapnel, but nothing else.

    Any drop-out (deletion) will be interesting in itself.

    Better to lose the whole thing than delete or tamper with box, tampering would be self-condemning… losing it in transit is better politically.

  57. 57

    Ukraine confirms they did not shoot down the airliner. Has stated they were out of range and all its missiles are accounted for and offers inspections if required

  58. 58

    Treatment… consisting of a gravity assisted short walk off a tall cliff.

  59. 59
    Mycroft says:

    I haven’t seen that, I sort of stopped watching after I became a bit depressed by the event itself.

    I’m quite weak that way, I get knocked down a bit by such vileness.

    But two bangs and an explosion is a bit of a tell-tale.

  60. 60

    I can’t cope with a world where Diane Abbott is right! Does not compute!

  61. 61
    Anonymous says:

    And it looks like the muppet Russian separatists (who were the most likely candidates) didn’t realise that deleting a tweet doesn’t destroy it!

    This is more than an embarrassment for Moscow, it’s a fucking disaster. I’m sure they still convinced that they can cover it up like a Cold War “incident.”

  62. 62

    I didn’t see an advert. Perhaps it’s cookie related – if you’ve not seen one lately, you’ve not seen your ‘quota’?

  63. 63
    Bluto says:

    Of course it was a shoot down. Dave is just being his usual mealy-mouthed, bet hedging, don’t upset anyone but UKIP, wet, spoon-faced, useless self.

    A proper statesman would have frozen or seized all Russian assets in the UK by now, including the homes of oligarchs in London.

  64. 64
    Bluto says:

    Never said it wasn’t his business. But he could have issued a short, dignified statement not gone on TV like a sleb, babbling uber-pundit.

  65. 65
    Aircraft Spotter says:

    Well thinking back to my college toxicology days a person as large as diane may require a double dose. Medication and the fatbots is tricky, particularly if the sunstance is fat soluble.
    She is right to be worried, anaesthetics should also worry her!

  66. 66
    Mycroft says:

    He has been his usual useless self, weak-knee’d and pathetic.

    People will still vote for him as his ‘serious face’ fools many.

  67. 67
    Seymour says:

    Who gains by shooting down the plane?
    There’s no advatage for the freedom fighters, a lot of advatage for the USA/EU supported rulers in Kiev in blaming the freedom fighters and the Russians.

    USA/EU ramping up the case for war against Russia and to make the Ukraine one of their fiefdoms.

  68. 68
    Money was probably the reason it was there. says:

    Irrelevant. If there is the slightest risk and there was and it has now been proved then No civilian aircraft should have been routed through that area.

    The only reason, the only logical reason must have been to save fuel costs.

    They are not allowed to fly through there today and the extra costs are being met. But fuel is a lot cheaper than the lives contained in a passenger aircraft.

  69. 69
    Victoria Nuland and Ann Applebaum says:

    Whereas if they had been sent to Washington we could have been confident of finding out the truth. /sarc

  70. 70
    Anonymous says:

    Not much said about this? It has been ongoing for some time.

  71. 71

    It seems to attract Labour flies when he does that:

    Vote UKIP :-D

  72. 72
    Anonymous says:

    Not much fun to be had in Gaza,but Amsterdam is a surefire winner.

  73. 73
    Anonymous says:

    Try a cold compress and a darkened room

  74. 74
    Mycroft says:

    You simply couldn’t do that and maintain air-corridors, we need corridors because they are much safer, Air Traffic Controllers are familiar with their zone and can run the complexity of the movement with a huge margin of safety, plus diverting from your alotted corridor requires notification and agreement for the extra burden on the one you go to.

    It is quite likely that the alternative corridors had already taken a few airlines traffic and were checking their own safety margins on the load applied to their ATCs before taking more craft.

    The alternative corridors will be heavily burdened right now as they try to cope with the increased flow.

    It is not like driving where one can change your mind and go right instead of left at the next junction.

  75. 75
    Odds favour ? says:

    And you think the Oligarchs had something to do with this?

    Typical default lefty, grab-whatever-you-can-that-others-own reaction.

    If you’re not a lefty, you sure behave like one

    Apportion blame where it’s due, of course, but prove it first.

  76. 76
    Jimmy says:

    But he’ll still keep taking all that Russian money.

  77. 77
    Victoria Nuland and Ann Applebaum says:

    Actually, there is, although it is ambiguous, like every other aspect of this tragic story. The previous 9 Malaysia flights are recorded as giving this area of Ukraine a wide berth, just this tenth one which flew almost over Donetsk, and barely over the height exclusion limit.

    There are so many possible scenarios here, with varying probabilities. From a mistake by Kiev forces who had multiple BUK systems, or by the East Ukrainians, who had at least one; to false data fed deliberately to a missile crew (easily done); to fully remote flight control (which all Boeings now have). There is also a report from a locally sited (Spanish) flight controller stating categorically that the plane was being shadowed by 2 Kiev jets.

    In the fog of war, it would be rash to believe the first or even the second official explanation. Cui bono is, as ever, critical, although it does not rule out simple fck-ups. But to go over old ground, the Kiev forces were/are taking a beating in the East and they are the ones who benefit from a widening of the war.

  78. 78
    deleted says:

    Labour made most people poor and Hungary while killing the aged and destroying the NHS. Homelessness increased dramatically under the last Labour government as did unemployment as it always does. The country was bust again as it always is when Labour leave power.

    So fuck off with your stupid comments and childish pictures. And take UKIP and shove it up your stupid thick as pigs shit arse. While you are at it same for Labour

  79. 79
    Anonymous says:

    On first take I thought that was Bradford?

  80. 80

    You perhaps have missed the deeper irony.

    Vote UKIP :-D

  81. 81
    Anonymous says:

    Wot like the Unions did and still do.

    Twat

  82. 82
    Bluto says:

    No I’m not a lefty by any means. Can’t stand them. But I don’t much care for Russian oligarchs inflating the housing market with dirty money or the governments that let them do it.

    It’s not about apportioning blame, it’s about sending a message, which our useless PM is usually very keen on.

  83. 83
    Ockham's Razor says:

    Agree completely. Therefore this is Russian kit, set off either on Putin’s orders or someone in a senior position in the Russian forces, possibly embedded in UA as a proxy for their so-called “rebels”.

    I do not buy the “accident” argument in the slightest. This is just too deliberate to fire, as you rightly point out, for there to have been some ghastly mistake carried out in the heat of the moment. Either way, it is bad for Putin. If he did it he can never be taken seriously on the world stage again. If it was the action of a highly placed renegade, then Putin is not in control.

    It is no win/no win.

  84. 84
    Victoria Nuland and Ann Applebaum says:

    Oh come off it maqboul. The whole story is unclear, and the recording you quote equally so.

    The recording released by Kiev is actually made up of two distinct sections; the first is a genuine recording of 2 East Ukrainian reps. discussing a downed plane and there have been many of those in the arena; while the second, which is being pitched as the smoking gun, is two unidentified individuals talking about the Malaysian flight who could be anyone, including actors.

    This is about as far from proof as it gets. And for the record, I’m no Ivan; Putin is not a good guy, although he appears to be somewhat less objectionable than the current US regime.

  85. 85
    Risk Analysis gone Wrong says:

    As a Country, as a league of nations, as a world, we are spending thousands of billions of dollars and committing countless hours of manpower into preventing “terrorists” blowing up a civilian airliner.

    Did no one then stop to think that it was a bad idea to fly civilian aircraft over a war zone, where aircraft are shot down daily, in order to save a few dollars in fuel and a few minutes of time?

  86. 86
    Jesus says:

    If Dave tried seizing the assets of Russian billionaires half of his family would be dead or missing within a week.

  87. 87
    The EU must take its share of the blame says:

    The EU has blood on its hands.

    It should not have directed civilian aircraft over a war zone, however small it considered the risk.

    A few dollars of fuel and a few minutes of extra journey time and there would have been no risk however small to even consider…Like today, after the event.

  88. 88
    Tony says:

    In the 70’s, two Air Rhodesia Viscounr aircraft were sot down with Sam 7 missiles after taking off from Kariba.

    On the second occasion the passengers who survived the crash were either murdered or raped by the terrorists who fired the missile.

    Was there an outcry over these acts? No there wasn’t, in fact the Dean of Salisbury cathedral the Rev. John Da Costa preached a sermon that subsequently was released as a record entitled “The Deafening Silence”

    Double standards?

  89. 89
    Maximus says:

    The incident occurred with the plane well away from the great circle route, usually flown for economy and efficiency. You might also ask yourself (tho I doubt you will) WTF was Ukr ATC, which is fully responsible for the safe passage of civilian planes within its airspace, doing routing it over a war zone? Whoever did it, Ukr ATC must bear some responsibility.

  90. 90
    Adam Boulton insects scandal says:

    Hard to swallow but can see the need for a no-fly zone.

  91. 91
    Anonymous says:

    Ockham’s Razor

    Most of the Ukranian army kit is russian or ex-soviet – their Buk SAM missile systems certainly are.

  92. 92
    Victoria Nuland and Ann Applebaum says:

    Coldly, rationally, you are right. There was no reason for the East Ukrainians to do this, and the Russians would not do it either – they have been holding back since the show started. Kiev, on the other hand, has both form and motive.

  93. 93
    Nigel says:

    I admire Putin.

  94. 94
    Odds favour ? says:

    Several Asian and other airlines have avoided the area for months.

    Including Qantas, Korean Air, Cathay Pacific, Asiana and Taiwan’s China Airlines.

    Or do they not count among the major Asian airlines you mention?

    Excellent Reuters piece here:

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/us-ukraine-crisis-airplane-qantas-idUKKBN0FN0WM20140718

  95. 95
    Flight Watch says:

    825 flights used that area since monday. No NOTAMS issued.
    It’s a standard air corridor.
    Nice try with the Putin propaganda but it’s not going to stack up this time.

  96. 96
    The plot thickens says:

    Much more to this than meets the eye.

    Russian military expert claims pilot radioed his concerns about the route before diverting over rebel-held territory
    Russian media explores theory that Ukrainian armed forces shot down Boeing 777 after mistaking it for Putin’s jet
    Kremlin leader was flying back to Moscow from Brazilian World Cup at around same time passenger plane crashed
    Russian aviation sources said the routes of the two planes ‘crossed at the same point and on the same altitude’
    Ukrainian official accuses Putin of smuggling missile launcher back into Russia to cover up Kremlin involvement
    Malaysian transport minister seeks to absolve airline of blame after it was criticised for flying through a war zone
    Liow Tiong Lai said MH17 was flying on internationally-approved route and pilot given no last-minute instructions

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696975/Putin-blames-Ukraine-loss-Flight-MH17-298-innocent-souls-DOESNT-deny-Russian-separatists-shot-missile-McCain-warns-Hell-pay.html

  97. 97
    Not a bad thing says:

    Quite right too. He’s more trustworthy than the leaders of the EU or our LibLabCon.

  98. 98
    Odds favour ? says:

    Same story notes”

    Ukrainian authorities had closed the flight path from the ground to around 32,000 feet, according to Eurocontrol, the agency responsible for coordinating European airspace. Flight MH17 was flying 1,000 feet above that.

  99. 99

    Or maybe you have by voting uKIP you will get the direct opposite of what you want. If it wasn’t so serious it would be laughable.

  100. 100
    Ockham's Razor says:

    @Anonymong

    Noted. But Ukraine have accounted for all such weapons and are prepared to allow verification. What do you think the chances are that Russia will follow suit?

  101. 101
    Maximus says:

    Not “Russian”, Soviet. BUK went into service 1980, and would have been deployed in Ukraine. Russians would not have bothered much leaving a few behind after the end of the USSR, as they had better tech on the way. Facts compatible with a Ukr false flag.

  102. 102
    Anonymous says:

    Have to say that I am surprised that aircraft were directed over a war zone. I certainly would not have minded an extra 10 minutes on the flight to avoid it.

  103. 103
    Maximus says:

    Are you saying GCHQ not up to the job? Is this the start of a NSA outsourcing racket?

  104. 104
    Tim Yeo-Yo says:

    If the grandstanding on twitter and the reported transcripts are true then it looks like this was a massive and tragic fuk up by the Russian Separatists.

    I wonder if Putin will attempt a Cold War style cover up? If the Ukrainians can absolutely prove it wasn’t them then I wonder if Vlad will come clean?

    Those asking what the plane was doing flying there. Planes fly over areas like this the whole time. The mistake (albeit tragic) was made by some dumb twat on the ground who was probably half pissed on vodka.

  105. 105
    Eyjafjallajökull says:

    All that effort avoiding the ash from the unpronounceable volcano and shutting down European airspace just in case it could be however remotely dangerous. Yet they do not avoid a war zone with SAM missiles?

  106. 106
    Your glib statement v the reality says:

    No they don’t.

    Qantas and Air Berlin, Asiana Airlines Inc, Korean Air Lines Co Ltd, Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd and Taiwan’s China Airlines decided to avoid Ukrainian airspace several months ago.

    “It’s blatantly obvious they shouldn’t have been anywhere near it,” Dell, who was working as a senior safety manager for Qantas during the first Gulf War, said of Flight MH17.

    “Any sort of unrest breaks out, civil wars or such, you change your flight path so that you don’t have to go anywhere near it. Of course it comes at a cost, because you have to fly further.”

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/us-ukraine-crisis-airplane-qantas-idUKKBN0FN0WM20140718

  107. 107
    298 Deaths is a Statistic. says:

    You utter mong. Someone made a giant boo-boo with Putin’s toys. Now they’re all rowing like Steve fucking Redgrave. It’s not van Rompuy or the CIA.

  108. 108
    Anonymous says:

    #Maximus

    Sorry, yes that’s what I was trying (in a less knowledgeable way) to get at.

    Too many trying idiotically to find any angle to pin this as a deliberate act by Russia itself.

    People are implying this was not a horrific accident but neither Russia nor the ‘separatists’ had anything to gain by this. Especially since the kiev forces were getting pasted in the east too.

  109. 109
    Anonymous says:

    I believe I flew over Ukraine with both Etihad and Emirates ijuat n the last couple of months.

  110. 110
    Willy Vague says:

    The only people who gain from this is the Ukrainians, perhaps their fighters shot it down?.

  111. 111

    Fuck off and live in Russia then. You would soon change your tune. I don’t suppose you have ever been there though have you. Just another loud mouth arm chair fucking warrior who talks bollocks

  112. 112
    Tim Yeo-Yo says:

    I didn’t say it was the right thing to be doing. Just that hundreds had.

  113. 113
    The Only good Terrorist is aDead Terrorist. says:

    Bullets must be costly these days!.

  114. 114
    Armchair general tw@ alert says:

    ‘Someone made a giant boo-boo with Putin’s toys.’

    Since you’re way ahead of any crash investigation…please enlighten us with some proof since both sides have the same ‘toys’…

  115. 115
    Red Ed says:

    What about the fighter planes?.

  116. 116

    Such a terrible tragedy

  117. 117
    Ockham's Razor says:

    @Anonymong

    “Too many trying idiotically to find any angle to pin this as a deliberate act by Russia itself”

    Whereas to use any angle to suggest that RF is not culpable is not idiotic, I suppose?

    What school of logic did you go to?

  118. 118
    Voice of Sanity says:

    They showed a picture of “Putin’s jet” which looked very much like the 777 shot down.

    Unfortunately for them he flew in a completely different aircraft, which was pictured in Brazil.

    Made up distractions.

    The trigger happy separatists did it with Russian toys.

    No need for any conspiracies.

  119. 119
    Tim Yeo-Yo says:

    I’m inclined to believe it was an utterly tragic clusterfuck made by the separatists.

    Given the lies and deceit peddled by both sides it’s going to be nonstop claim and counter claim.

    You’ll also have the tinfoil hat bunch blaming M’urdoch, the CIA and the Is’rael’is.

  120. 120
    Anonymous says:

    Critical thinking yeah?

    The school of logic that says before facts are known not to apportion blame.

    Further, that anyone jumping to a such a strong conclusion as…

    “Therefore this is Russian kit, set off either on Putin’s orders or someone in a senior position in the Russian forces,”

    …might have a pre-judged culprit in mind and not be objective.

  121. 121
    LOL says:

    David Cameron Cast Iron Guarantee
    Nick Clegg No tuition fees
    Ed Miliband Freeze global energy prices
    Accountants have never signed off the EU’s books.

  122. 122
    Tim Yeo-Yo says:

    One day will finally learn the meaning of the word hypocrisy. Then he will realise why everyone thinks he’s a stupid twat.

  123. 123

    All the other world leaders have gone on TV. If Cameron hadn’t maybe not you but someone else would have come along and castigated him for doing that instead. Can’t please everyone, for sure, but complaining about this is really pointless considering the gravity of the situation.

  124. 124
    Guidebook says:

    You must be new here.

    Other regulars know to install Adblock+ (it is free!) which squishes all ads before they even get off the starting blocks.

    Try it.

  125. 125
    Guidebook says:

    You could hear the sign of relief from the London staff as far away as Southend.

  126. 126
    Mycroft says:

    Lots of ‘ifs’ abound.

    But if there is a witness saying he heard two bangs and then the explosion, that is very strong evidence of a single BUK, now if it is a singleton then it WILL require visual sighting, this means someone looked into the sky, saw the contrail and then gave the approx bearing and then the BUKs omnifocal radar locks on to it.

    Now, you can all look on Flightradar and often find a 747/777 sized plane at 30kft, it is quite distinguishable as a ‘normal’ plane, the contrail will show a straight course and it is absolutely certain that what you are looking at is a civilian plane, go outside and look yourselves, it is unmistakeable to the naked eye, in an optical ranger finder (to get the initial bearing) it will probably even have identifiable markings to show it’s an airliner.

    I’m sorry to say that this is increasingly obvious as a purposeful downing.

    If it is a BUK team then it is just as inexcusable because that will have to be purposefully ‘told’ to ignore the plane’s civilian squawk that tells all such weapons the plane is civilian.

    Either way if this is a BUK single or teamed it takes human input to either sight the initial target or to over-ride the ‘don’t touch me, I’m a non-combatant’ safety lock.

    The more I consider the matter the more it strikes me that there is a singular dark heart at the centre of this, just one person made the finally fatal move.

  127. 127
    Mr Putin says:

    I thought initial reports suggested bad weather had contributed to the route?

  128. 128
    After a Cock up says:

    Who has most to gain is the first question one should ask.

  129. 129
    olden1936 says:

    On TV news it was suggested that Infra red cameras in space could locate and reveal the actual launch site. But this entire rebel movement depends for its arms supply upon outside sources;in this case we are told supplied by Russia. Who are we in the West to judge the arms suppliers about the havoc caused by the people they supply including the current death toll of Gazan civilians caused by Israel forces using USA supplied military arms, and Hamas rockets supplied by Arab states and God knows who else?

  130. 130
    Ockham's Razor says:

    @Anonymong

    I know this is difficult for you so you ignored it but:

    What do you think the chances are that Russia will follow suit?
    What do you think the chances are that Russia will follow suit?
    What do you think the chances are that Russia will follow suit?
    What do you think the chances are that Russia will follow suit?
    What do you think the chances are that Russia will follow suit?

    There. I said it five times for you so you might just get it.

    For an Idiot, you do not even seem to be Useful.

  131. 131
    Mycroft says:

    Film of a BUK-mono with two rockets missing, heading toward the Russian border…

    Oh dear.

    The firing sequence for a BUK-mono according to Janes is ‘two inner’ followed by ‘two outer’.

    Two inner missing in the video.

  132. 132
    Tim Yeo-Yo says:

    95% did according to Eurocontrol.

  133. 133
    HenryV says:

    Follow the money.

  134. 134
    mit says:

    95% of the ones still flying over that part of Ukraine, not 95% of all aircraft transiting to Asia. There is a massive difference.

  135. 135
    Odds favour ? says:

    Several Asian and other airlines have avoided the area for months.

    Including Qantas, Korean Air, Cathay Pacific, Asiana and Taiwan’s China Airlines.

    Or do they not count among the major Asian airlines you mention?

    Excellent Reuters piece here:

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/us-ukraine-crisis-airplane-qantas-idUKKBN0FN0WM20140718

  136. 136
    Mycroft says:

    aberration, she’ll back to being wrong immediately…

  137. 137
    Seymour says:

    The Ukrainians, backed by the CIA, are just as likely to have done it to justify the ongoing slaughter of those opposed to the bosses in Kiev.
    They have the bulk of the weapons and have trained troops in the field.

  138. 138
    Seymour says:

    You do realise that the Kiev rulers have the same weapons as the Russins, in fact they are Russian made weapons.
    As for the CIA, they have openly had operatives/advisors in Kiev since the start of all this.
    How many billions has the EU given to the rulers in Kiev?

    Your and my tax money given to bolster an anti-Russian regime and prior to that bribes to get Ukraine to submit to the EUs commisariate and break with Russia

  139. 139

    Dave s obviously been to his eyetie hairdresser today and asked for a serious/sad tonsure to fit the mood of the news.

  140. 140

    Talking of uber pundits could nt Alan Hansen take over Dave s job now
    he s unemployed ?

    “Absolutely appaling ”
    “No defensive acumen whatsoever”
    ” Complete failure to boss the midfield early doors”
    ” The defence were as static as turkeys waiting for Christmas”

    That should cover the soundbite spectrum

  141. 141
    Long John Silver's parrot says:

    Why hasn’t Cameron been on the phone to the Russian and Ukrainian Presidents ?

    He says it is an “appalling, shocking, horrific incident” but then goes on to admit that we “still have to get to the bottom of this” so perhaps it would have been sensible to express condolences and leave the invective out of it.

    Who knows when Barry said last night “it may have been a terrible tragedy” Cameron may still be nodding his head like a poodle in the days to come .

    He is no statesman. He is using the situation to make a few juicy soundbites. His hero Blair though was a little better at it.

  142. 142
    Long John Silver's parrot says:

    if the transcripts are true then this is not “a massive and tragic fuk up” as you say but a case of murder and the world will have to go into Ukraine and/or Russia and bring the people responsible to justice.

    There should also be an International Inquiry held without delay to come up with clear international guidelines about flying over War Zones or areas which do not conform to the Rule of Law.

    In view of this incident and what is happening in Gaza the summer recess should have been put on hold.

  143. 143
    DaveH says:

    Nigel “I admire Putin” keeping a low profile at the moment – UKIP not keen on being reminded of their leader’s allegiances.

  144. 144
    Snivelling Putin Apologist Alert no. 10000 says:

    Exactly which part of the footage of Russian separatists dancing around boasting, “Yay! We shot down a plane!” from a location verifiably deep within separatist held territory do you dispute? Not to mention a large amount of other material on social media immediately following the atrocity. Oh, of course, it’s all Ukrainians in disguise, angling for world sympathy, thinking they could literally get away with murder. Donkey.

  145. 145

    If the EU commissars had not interfered in The Ukraine in the first place none of this would have happened.
    Ashdown and Barroso are the real culprits who set this chain of events in motion.

  146. 146
    Anonymous says:

    “Cameron Statement on Ukraine Plane Crash”
    All that public money ‘invested’ in interweb snooping, and GCHQ still have no clue about what the ‘terrorists’ are up to. But on the upside, with a little unintentional help from Angie, they did manage to get a bet in on Germany for the World Cup win.

  147. 147
    non believer says:

    Hmmm, I remember in late 2003-early 2004 when flying BA regularly to Oman, the flight would routinely divert from Turkey and fly over Iran to keep out of Iraqi airspace as an air exclusion zone was in place-even though tge war was “over”

  148. 148
    Anonymous says:

    Mycroft

    Interesting points.

    They are not Heat Seeking Missles so they need to be guided.

    How do you guide them in two dimensions?

    You need co-ordinates ( and adjusted ones at that ) the plane is moving at 500 plus miles an hour so guessing is not an option.

    Very queer as they say in upper ranks.

  149. 149
    olden1936 says:

    We are informed, via the media, that flight MH17 was blown out of the sky by a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area. This leaves me wondering what level of computer skills would be required of a missile-firing volunteer rebel to be able to program a missile to hit with pin-point accuracy such a fast moving and distant target. It seems the international confrontational blame game is once more in full swing, and whether the game is intended by the hidden un-elected elite to keep the nations of mankind in a state of obedient, nervous apprehension or not, who can say? But my sympathies go out to all affected by the tragic fate of flight MH17 and the international vague, bungling, heartless aftermath to be endured by us all.

  150. 150
    Mycroft says:

    There were likely to have been two missiles fired.

    Each Missile has one half of a Duplex’d targeting system, one part on the missile and the other on the ground.

    The missile doesn’t have to hit, it merely has to explode in proximity to the ‘plane, that is why a BUK on it’s own fires two missiles, twice the chances of being close.

    The warheads are effectively hundreds of near-hyper-sonic hot shards only one of which needs to breach the integrity of the plane’s pressurised cabin to down it, or hit a tank or fuel line to down it, or the hydraulics or the kinematic surfaces to down it.

    Zero ‘computer skills’ but lots of adherence to an ‘Acquisition’ and ‘Firing’ sequence, once the radar locks on with a steady signal and you’ve done all the sequences, the plane is toast.

    Missiles like this are designed to down craft travelling at Mach 1.6 and if a 4-pack BUK is used then it can attach to that craft’s tail, close into just the point of instability in the crafts wash and then explode.

    Passenger airliners are huge compared to a Mach 1.6 capable fighter and travel at less than 550knots (0.75 mach) have no system to pick up the rapidly closing missiles and even if it did the missiles will run at about Mach 2 and could not possibly avoid it if it did.

    The term that will have sprung to your mind would have been sitting target, in that you are 100% spot-on… sadly.


Seen Elsewhere

NiMo Grovels to Blob | Chris McGovern
UKIP’s Modern, Internationalist Agenda | Douglas Carswell
Beeb Bias is Counterproductive | Nicholas Booth
Bercow Blames Colleagues for Clerk Mess | Guardian
Tony Benn Too Left-Wing For Soviet Union | Telegraph
Mrs Danczuk’s Festive Treat | Sun
Hollande Forced to Ditch Super-Tax | Mail
1 in 3 Back UKIP Over Chinky-Gate | Breitbart
Ed Miliband Taken Hostage | Worcester News
This Brilliant Coalition, Apart from Craig Oliver | Peter Oborne
Digital Politics: Standing Still Faster | Rafael Behr


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