January 11th, 2014

SKETCH: EU Referendum Bill
It’s in the Lords: Will it Ever Come Out?

The debate was good enough to shift obdurate, entrenched and virulent opinion (I speak for myself).

In the end the summary seems to be: good idea, bad bill/bad idea, bad bill.

In the blue corner, the democrats who say that it is the settled will of the British people that there be a referendum (Lords Owen, King et alia). In the red corner, the lofty lefties who think the people should act in their higher interests by doing what they’re told.

In the middle, peers who may be for or against a referendum but who prefer to wallow the filthy politics of it. For them it’s a partisan Bill, it’s designed to get Cameron out of a hole, it’s pandering, it’s probably the result of global warming.

Lord Liddle (Lab, obviously) got a great shout of laughter when he described the deep divisions in the Conservative party on Europe and claimed, “Labour does not have these visceral internal divisions to manage.”

Noble Lords: Oh!

“Oh!” may need translating. I leave that to Commentators, below.

Mandelson (financial interest undeclared) called it “a pig-in-a-poke referendum”. As one of the aristocrats of Animal farm he meant that a referendum was Government of the pigs, by the pigs, for the pigs.

He deployed a weapon from his dark armoury by ascribing the most vulnerable aspect of his position to his opponents saying the referendum would “create more alienation and public disillusion.”

Noble Lords going Oh! completely missing.

Mandelson gave heart to skeptics saying that “it is stage one in raising impossible demands of the EU in order to create a pretext for leaving it”. But he also cast a chill in the hearts of the faintly-skeptic with his confidence that In would Win.

That’s something skeptics should take more seriously. Their poll lead is not decisive. And the consequences of leaving, when laid out one by one, are impressive.

Lord Turnbull listed some: “. . . citizenship and rights of residence affecting millions of people who have moved one way or another within the European Union; ownership of property; employment; trade in goods and services; recognition of intellectual property; the operation of cross-border businesses; study at European universities; and many others.”

But leaving aside the devils of these details, the case for a referendum is yet more impressive.

Michael Ancram as was: “Never in the history of democracy has there been such a large bureaucratic empire without once consulting the peoples who are affected by it as to whether they wanted it or whether they liked the shape of it.”

UKIP’s Lord Willoughby: “. . . the European project is all about rampant supranationalism, with a sneering disregard for national sovereignty.”

And finally, there was Neil Kinnock (enormous financial interests undeclared). He claimed that the consequences of membership of the European Community were persistently and vigorously presented to the British people. That is such fat, copper-bottomed lie-and-a-half it must go onto the frontispiece of the Out campaign document. With Kinnock against them the Outs can’t lose.

For it or against, the Lords have to process the Referendum Bill because it is a Commons Bill and therefore loose as a goose in its conception and drafting.

The fixed date for the referendum is 2017. There are German and French elections in that year and it may not be clear who is governing those countries, as it takes them time to establish their coalitions.

Can anything be negotiated with the EU in a couple of years? it takes a year to decide on the refreshments at the meetings. It took Mrs T five years to get one demand, her rebate (Lord Armstrong). Cameron should be allowed as long as he needs, he said.

In any event, the deal that we will be offered is entirely unclear. “It is important the public must be able to handle the goods before they buy.” (Lord Inglewood). How will that happen?

Lord Crisp asked: what is the question, and who gets to vote? There are 1.5m Britons now living in Europe, currently not included in the franchise. What happens to their opinion?

The question of the question is a challenge to us short-tempered democrats. “Should Britain be in the European Union” is criticised by the Electoral Commission because many people don’t know we are in the European Union at all. And yet they have a vote on whether we should stay in it. Such is democracy.

But if the question is amended to “Should Britain remain in the European Union” then the Bill is lost.

Because the Bill is, according to the business managers, unamendable. If it’s changed, it goes to the bottom of the Commons pile and is dissolved at the same time as Parliament (Lord Wakeham).

So the Lords can scrutinise it, but not change it. (“Why don’t we all go home now,” more than one peer asked.

And is there any point to the Bill at all, considering that David Cameron has promised a referendum, it will be in the manifesto. Isn’t the prime minister’s word good enough? (Answers to that question to appear in Comments below.).

One result of the Electoral Commission research was that ordinary people are unsure what they know about the EU.

I can tell them.


It’s very unlikely that 25,000 people in Britain know anything of consequence about the EU.

For instance, do you disapprove of the passerelle because a) it’s an expression of a characteristically continental system of fiat government? Or b) because it contains too much fat?

But we know rock-all about benefit tapers as well and yet we all know which way we’d vote on that.

Referendum-fans should monitor the Bill in committee – it has to be out by the end of February, in the same form it went in – or it will be lost.

PS: New peer and Times columnist Danny Finkelstein made a speech on the Bill. It had jokes in it. Peers described it as “refreshing” and “very amusing:”. It wasn’t clear whether Finkelstein realised how damaging to his reputation the reaction was.


  1. 1
    2013retribution says:

    “Will it ever come out” you ask. Not if they used superglue it won’t.



    • 35
      Toxic Labour for Spongers, Parasites, Immigrants, Criminals & other Wasters. says:

      What these lofty lords must realise is if legitimate discontent is denied a vote then only terrorism is left.


      • 45
        Casual Observer 5 says:

        They do realize that if the right to determination is denied then violence will follow. That was a subtext of many of the speeches speaking about democracy and the power of the people yesterday.

        However, they also realize more subtly that if they allow the legitimacy of the government and their own legitimacy to be undermined on this issue then they will lose the right to govern irrespective.

        Do not be under any illusion that the Lords reform could be put back on the table with blame pinned on the Lords if there is any issue with civil unrest stemming from their handling of this bill.

        This perhaps is why Clegg was described as ‘malevolent’.


        • 47
          Casual Observer 5 says:

          meant of course – Lords reform would be put back on the table as the Commons would pass the buck, and perhaps be ordered to do so by the EU.


          • Mr Potato Head says:

            If the plebs should not be allowed a vote on Europe how come the same plebs are allowed a vote on the UK every five years?


      • 46
        Reader says:

        That, sadly, is where the logic of this is tending towards, though a revolution is also possible.

        I hope these people wake up and smell the coffee, but I suspect, being the great and good, they are too fucking stupid to see the pretty pass they are rapidly reaching.


      • 250
        Civil Rights (Northern Ireland) (1969) says:

        Didn’t we learn that lesson in the Six Counties?


      • 416
        Anonymous says:

        Terrorism is merely acts of violence against the people, for publicity. It achieves nothing other than misery for innocents – all terrorists are scum.

        Revolution, on the other hand, …


      • 456
        (That's enough Eds, Ed!) says:

        You’ve not inconsiderably lowered in my estimation, Mr. Carr, merely for saying “That’s something skeptics should take more seriously. Their poll lead is not decisive. And the consequences of leaving, when laid out one by one, are impressive.” That places you right alongside the detested Beeboids and Guardianistas who would sell us into slavery!


    • 58
      napoleon says:

      sounds as if the lords took the opportunity to show their contempt for the electorate

      pity the land without lords
      pity yet more the land that needs them


    • 104
      Psyche the Dog says:

      There one problem as far as the comerouters are concerned, what to do if the vote actually goes against them, will they throw their toys out of the play pen and demand another vote, or accept finally the result of the poll?


      • 143
        Arnold says:

        >will they throw their toys out of the play pen and demand another vote

        If they do, it’ll be because they’ve picked up the habit from the European Commission.


    • 121
      Vote for EEC means says:

      If you vote for the EEC, if it ever happens, could we not all agree the House of Commons becomes a revision chamber of EEC directives etc and other business and the Lords is abolished with all members pensions perks and privileges lossed for good.


    • 183
      Maggie the dog says:

      parliament act end of


  2. 2
    Jay says:

    I am not a big fan of these sketches, I have to say.


    • 10
      Pascal Chimbonda's Locksmith says:

      I have to say that I am a fan.

      The idea of Mandelson and Kinnock pontificating at our expense in order to deny a referendum is disgraceful. These two have been on the wrong side of history for their entire political careers and they ain’t changing yet.


      • 20
        Anonymous says:

        I am also a fan and feel the same about Kinnock/Mandelson.


      • 23
        Jack Ketch says:

        Mandlebaum and Kinnock ( and you can add Clegg and Patton) receive pensions from the EU at a level that would satisfy a Columbian druglord. One condition of all EU pensions is that the beneficiaries continue to promote the “European Ideal” and are under sanction of losing their benefit if they criticise the EU, its Commission or its structures, so they are hardly going to be honest or objective–but then who would expect The Dark Lord or Gollum to be honest?


        • 60

          As I pointed out earlier this means that their first loyalty is to the EU even when speaking in the British Parliament !
          Do they ever declare an interest ?


        • 201
          Lard Prescun't says:

          Let’s face it Mandelson is a global whore who would sell his grandmother for money.

          I’m not naturally malicious but I think “tramp the dirt down” will be wholly appropriate when this sleazy scumbag pops his clogs.


          • Omar Shamshoon says:

            You are right – but please remember that Kinnochio went off to Brussels on a crusade of reforming it and circumventing and even remedying corruption and hypocrisy.
            He ended up not only joining the unelected crony club and doing absolutely nothing, but became top pig in the dungheap of corruption and hypocrisy.
            Of the two I give the benefit of wisdom to Mandleson only because he operates more in the real world than Kinnochio.


      • 113
        bloke says:



    • 39
    • 97
      Fred says:

      I am fan. The first one was not great but now I think they are one of the best things here. We need to know how the system works and how it fails. We need to know what goes on. This guys tells us and he writes well.


      • 281
        Pdubya says:

        Agreed I have read most of his articles and they do throw a jaundiced journalistic eye on the appallingly bad way politicians, the public sector in general and in this case the retirement home for hangers on treat the electorate.


    • 296
      Intellectual Pygmy says:

      Are they not of your political flavour?


    • 417
      Dave (no relation) says:

      I like them, they are well-written, informative and amusing.


      • 445
        Joe Public. says:

        Seem the readers in approval of these articles is about 100 to 1.
        Who are these others? Probably lefty loon trolls.


  3. 3
    One Term Dave says:

    I’ll give you my cast iron guarantee it’ll pass!


  4. 4
    BBC says:

    Today we’ll mostly be completely ignoring the death of Ariel Sharon, we won’t be sending 150 jonos to the promised land to cover his memorial and we won’t be doing a two hour Ariel Sharon special or turning his death in to a political bandwagon.

    We are the BBC.

    PS. Remember to pay your TV tax on time or we’ll send the goons round.


  5. 5
    WelshRacer says:



  6. 6
    John down the road says:

    To really understand what’s going on click over to Dr North at EUreferendum



  7. 7
    Glyn H says:

    The Electoral Commission objections are as disable as the daft catholic woman suing her solicitors because they did not explain that divorce meant the end of her marriage. If you have to explain to your clients what door, coffee, carpet and chair mean life would grind to a halt. The EC has an appalling record over the postal voting scandal and are partisan to lefty causes; thus by definition seek to harm GB interests.


    • 50
      Democracy Now says:

      ‘partisan to lefty causes’

      My dear, it is far worse than simply that. Some of them are dodgy coves.


    • 322
      Intellectual Pygmy says:

      It is bollocks anyway.

      Most of the political class and their beneficiaries assume that because you don’t have the time or inclination to read the minutiae of this or that aspect of the EU, you are by default incapable of deciding whether the EU is anti democratic for instance. I don’t need to look at the details to know that the leaders are chosen without a democratic vote. That is anti democracy.

      If you are pro unelected leaders you are anti democracy, it is that simple. It should be for the supporters of the EU to explain to the rest of us why democracy should be discarded.


  8. 8
    Glyn H says:

    I hate autocorrect! Risible!!


  9. 9
    Blessed Mark of Tottenham says:

    I love the EU and the ECHR because they will get me justice and plenty of bennies for mu six kids/


    • 89
      Ms Beckett aged 17 3/4 says:

      When I read this I cried. I want all bennies dead


    • 286

      You may think that funny but if the eurotraitors can get enough chavs to believe that in a referendum…………………..


      • 328
        Intellectual Pygmy says:

        I listened to the LBC phone in about the EU referendum yesterday tea time. They managed to finally drag out somebody who claimed to be a foreigner indispensable to Britain. She said the EU was great because we would suffer if she was made to go home. The presenter failed to point out that if she was indispensable, as she claimed, we would be offering her work under the current visa system anyway.

        Apart from her the only person who said he would vote yes was Red Ken and even he had reservations and said he was worried about the loss of trade.


  10. 11
    i don't n eed no doctor says:

    BBC – Reporting on Sharon the BBC have item after item telling us how Sharon was a terrorist and criminal.
    Strange that in the days and days of BBC Mandella coverage there was never any detail of Mandela’s terrorist activities.
    Draw your own conclusions about the BBC’s agenda.


    • 24
      Whiffler says:

      Perhaps Sharon was involved in killing people – and our people at that!.

      Later – much later – he became a politician.


      • 62
        Anonymous says:

        Our people? Would that be Iraqis, Syrians, Egyptians or Jordanians? Arik’s military career started in 1948. He was hit by 3 bullets at the first battle of Latrun courtesy of the British run and trained Jordanian army. He was an old style patriot and put his country first.


      • 78
        Colin the Meek says:

        Very similar to Mandela.


    • 51
      Mandela Free Zone says:


    • 125
      BBC and hamas are as one on this issue says:

      The BBC filled with hate, almost as if the BBC and hamas were one organisation, you never see them together do you?


      • 180
        M102 says:

        I remember years ago just before Hammas got in, I was driving home from work listening to PM and that c’unt Hugh Sykes was wanking himself into a frenzy talking to P@lestinians about the election. That was about when I stopped listening to PM :)


  11. 12
    Jimmy says:

    Here’s a alternative suggestion. At the election next year let the parties say in their manifesto whether or not they think the EU is a good idea or not and then the voters can decide.


  12. 13
    i don't n eed no doctor says:

    Well what a great turn out for the Duggan vigil. Socialists, anarchists and benefit scroungers.


  13. 14
    White Hart Lane says:

    Just passed Tottenham police station very quiet the Duggan vigil was a damp squib.


  14. 15
    Geoffrey Johns says:

    So the Eurofanatic argument as it stands runs thus – we’ve dragged you into this debacle so far that getting out will really hurt you. True to form they want to make the issue undiscussable. Trust me, we can expect the mother of all scare campaigns if a referendum is ever held.

    I shall vote UKIP, even if I think that this will lead to a Labour victory. It seems to me that this would be the least worse outcome.


    • 81
      Dirty ole Bugger says:

      Exactly. It will be like the “no to AV” campaign all over again. Rember those leaflets sent by “lord knows who”? The ones that said “Vote no to AV or it will cost £1trillion per vote and millions of babies in incubators will die and it will be all your fault?


      • 422
        Dave (no relation) says:

        Stephen Fry and Eddie Izzard wanting AV was enough to make most people vote against it, just to piss them off.


  15. 17
    Bilderbugger You EU says:

    Fracking Total power. TPP. Ipnas. It is futile, just bend over.


  16. 18
    Iain Smith says:

    Universal Credit will be delivered on time and on budget.


  17. 21
    General Pinochet says:

    Back in Chile in the good old days we never had referendums………….if you didn’t like what was going on, you simply disappeared! Luckily in Britain we have Senor Farage……..he will make the EU disappear!

    Hasta La Victoria Siempre UKIP amigos!


    • 55
      How wrong you are says:


    • 85
      The Late Baroness Thatcher of Pestilence says:

      You’re talking about the man I love.


      • 117
        The general is is heaven, his enemies are in hell says:

        Pinochet was a hero and a good and decent man who managed to clean out extremist vermin who would have certainly gone on to set up a murderous left wing dictatorship. So a few leftists disappeared, no great loss thats for sure, a few thousand less hamas supporters.


      • 344
        Intellectual Pygmy says:

        And batting for the global left we have Chairman Mao, Pol Pot and every stony faced cnut who ever run the Soviet Union.

        I won’t bother working out how many people these feckers killed because really anything more than one is a statistic.

        You nasty two faced murderous bastards.


  18. 25
    Casual Observer 5 says:

    The debate is worth watching in full.

    Another theme which came across from those who spoke both for and against was the question of why the referendum should be avoided when it would be a good opportunity for the ‘In’ argument to be made.

    Some did raise the relevant point that shying away from this and not presenting that (or any) argument to the people has played a very large part in the rise of UKIP, and what could be considered unreasonable skepticism in some quarters.

    The big tell is that the pro arguments made alluded to above, were mainly the old canards about loss of jobs, adverse economic effects, preventing wars and essentially: What will they do to us if we leave. Most of these were also defused in the same debate.

    The subject of Eurocrat pension obligations which the UK may continue to be liable for raised – which is perhaps a very strong secondary no argument.

    Nick Clegg’s actions were described as being ‘malevolent’.

    The bill may come out with some minor amendments quickly so as the problem is passed back to the Commons and the Lords are absolved of charges of not following procedure properly (private members bills should be amended and they do not want to set precedent of treating such as government bills), or killing the bill.

    If the bill found its way to the bottom of the pile as a result, that would play very nicely into UKIP’s hands.

    They have already stated that their process of amendment is compromised by the fact that the bill may die if amended. The Lords may prefer to ensure that such damaging strategy is discouraged in future as it is not in the spirit of things.

    Perhaps the Lords will decide to pull the pin on this particular hand grenade to teach this Prime Minister a lesson in etiquette ?


    • 49

      A camel is supposed to be a horse devised by a committee.

      I have seen evidence of this nugget of truth at many different points in my long career.

      Never… (Churchillian paws for effect) have I heard its truth reflected multiple times in the same situation as in this subject. It is the alpha and the omegawd!


      • 61
        Casual Observer 5 says:

        The fundamental problem has been that from inception the UK public has been lied to on this specific issue, and sold the short end of the stick.

        The debate yesterday illuminated a lot of the real thinking and sentiment that has been at work, but was left at the end of it still confident that the Out box is the right one to check.

        Why ?

        Irrespective of the apparent benefits (questionable) etc. and maybe good future, being taken into an organization like this on a lie is going to end badly whatever happens.

        This is maybe why it is falling apart as it is at present as the dishonesty has been repeated across many member states. Only G’ermany itself has not fully woken up to the reality.

        The fundamental dishonesty has undermined any chance of political union. That lesson has not been learned, as the UK is told that it is the problem partner, then you read in the Span!sh press that they are being told the same, and then there is G’reece who need riot police to enable the handover of the presidency.

        It seems that even when trying to do the democratic thing, the EU / Europe question for the UK damages democracy.

        Hope you get a chance to watch the debate it, or read through some in Hansard as would be interested to hear your view.


        • 68
          Non taxable pikey says:

          Churchillian paws? Well he was an old imperial lion.


        • 69

          Doubt I will get the time as things are busy here.

          However, I dare say I could write it all out from imagination and knowledge of the players.

          The interesting thing is that I would probably vote out, notwithstanding my status of being a foreign resident. That is assuming I will get a vote, a matter of some doubt, referred to by Lord Crisp and mentioned in Simon’s piece.

          If that may be indicative of an ethical approach over one’s own preferment, I leave others to judge. Maybe I am just a fool. :-)


          • Casual Observer 5 says:

            There is a completely tortuous argument playing itself out right there.

            One issue raised for UK exit is what will happen to UK nationals who have relocated to other EU member states.

            I do not see why their interests should be affected at all: They were just fine before the EU existed, so why should they be different after ? Perhaps those folk may need to apply for citizenship, but surely their current EU citizenship is fine as it is that of those here who would be choosing to revoke.

            They should not lose their UK citizenship either – dual citizenship is tried and tested.

            Second – this is a vote for all in the UK and the ex-patriot vote is equally qualified and should be included. This issue is a major flaw with the Scottish vote IMO, and the arguments for exclusion are false.

            Seems like G’ermany is getting tough:


            Cameron’s fruitcakes approach arguably helped get UKIP off the ground properly. This kind of talk is really inviting the UK to leave.

            Flawed as well as by definition as someone who is opposed to the EU is a danger to it. Politically at least as they will want to vote it away. Take away that right, then I think we see where the G’erman wants to take this ;-)


          • Nothing like ad hominem from the opposing forces to realise that we have won the argument…


          • Casual Observer 5 says:



        • 80
          Universal Hiss says:

          At times I’m very simplistic.

          I see Mandleson & Kinnock are all for the EU & wish to deny me a say in something I think is of the utmost importance to my country.

          Therefore I will take the opposite view.

          Gordon Brown has put his considerable weight behind Better Together. This is a man that did untold damage to my country.

          Therefore I will take the opposite view.


          • Casual Observer 5 says:

            It comes down to trust and judgement.

            For that your view is shrewd and representative.

            If the In argument is the best one, and can be assumed, why all the deceit and deception to date ?

            To your point, the country never trusted Kinnock enough to vote him in when offered the chance, and M’andelson was thrown out of the last government twice for various improprieties – out of a Blair government.

            Why should they be trusted now, and why are they so in favor ?


          • left wing, right wing, they're all turkeys. . says:

            To universal hiss…

            You’ve hit a whole bucket of nails on the head with 1 (or maybe 2) strokes.



          • Intellectual Pygmy says:

            @Universal Hiss.

            One argument is the loss of trade. They always say we will lose trade, they just call it jobs, far more provocative a term.

            Ask them how they believe Germany will respond to losing its most important export customer for German automobiles? Five out of ten of the best selling cars in Britain in 2012 were built by the German car industry.

            Ask them what provisions Merkel has made to protect Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagen and Porsche from the loss of sales to the UK? She will protect them, have no doubt.

            Now spend a moment thinking about the manufacturing output of German engineering companies selling to Britain.

            The Germans need us and they will NEVER allow the EU to fuck up their access to our markets.


          • Alice says:

            Not only simplistic, but inconsistent.
            You want the UK out of the EU yet you want to be in an “Independent” Scotland that would surely be sunk in the EU cesspit.


  19. 28
    Smackheads Against The Tories says:

    Conservative leader David Cameron took drugs while he was a pupil at Eton College, a new biography has claimed>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6350909.stm


    • 56
      Potato says:

      Find me a politician who hasn’t tried drugs at some level at all, and I will show you someone who spent their entire adolescence and univerrsity years as a billy no mates.


    • 67
      Potato says:

      Find me a politician who hasn’t tried drugs at some level at all, and I will show you someone who spent their entire adolescence and univerrsity years as a beeelly no mates.


    • 79
      Professor Plum says:

      So what? Feckin red ed looks like he needs to be on summit himself the wonky lookin mong..


    • 94
      Auto correct says:

      Your statement said “claimed” .

      Not the sharpest razor blade in the drug paraphernalia are you?


    • 240
      Tom Fatson says:

      That article is SEVEN years old. You are Dolly Draper and I claim my free copy of one of your dreadful ‘books’.


    • 356
      Intellectual Pygmy says:

      I started smoking pot at the tender age of fourteen. It wasn’t my fault, it was my mates brothers fault for leaving his stash in his sock drawer. Nasty drug pedaling bastard tried to restrict my human rights and twat me for smoking his shit. Fuck him.

      I bet I’ll never get a job in my life for smoking that nasty pot!

      Apart from the fact that I have spent the last ten years working for the US Department of Defense.


      • 448
        Cor Blimey says:

        And there was I thinking you were going to finish with “spent the last ten years” in Broadmoor.


  20. 29
    nee nick clegg. says:

    nee is a slippery fish. ne. ne ne.
    he likes to say no. his knee is active. he must have car trouble. he needs a fixer. there. fixed t fr you.


  21. 30
    Karl Marx says:

    I taught, quite simply, that the people are conditioned to accept the social and political constructs in which they have been raised. I also taught that only by suddenly and forcefully imposing a new political and social order on the people will the people be forced to accept the new conditioning of the socialist state.

    My followers Kinnock and Mandelson are merely reflecting my teaching. The people should have no say in the socialist EU because currently the people are wedded to the ideas of freedom, capitalism and democracy. Only by forcing socialism upon them can the people be forced to accept socialism as their future.

    Socialists must, by their nature and in following my teachings, refuse any kind of referendum which would somehow allow the people to reject socialism. Eventually the people will be brainwashed, sorry convinced of the correctness of socialism.


    • 63

      How does one define means of production when there is no production?

      It is a problem that has worried me for years and I did not know there was a place like this where one could bring these things up.

      Thanking you in advance.


      • 92
        Karl Marx says:

        In the capitalist system, the citizen is encouraged to work in order to obtain some small part of the wealth produced by the capitalist system. In a socialist system the “carrot” of wealth must be denied, since this would allow the citizen to aquire property which is impossible in a socialist state.

        In the socialist system, therefore, there is no incentive to work or to “produce” as you would put it, so productivity falls. However, decreasing productivity in the socialist system can be re-branded as “opposition to socialism”. It is then a simple matter to justify the replacement of the “carrot” of capitalism with the “stick” of socialism. In Russia they call it “the gulag” but other socialist states have alternate means of implementing the “stick”. Productivity then rises again to an acceptable level.

        Of course, in the socialist system there is no incentive to produce more or better, as this would require innovation and this innovation is not rewarded by gaining wealth. However, socialism is less interested in the level of wealth created and more focussed on the equality of wealth, so low levels of productivity are not a concern.


        • 99

          Thank you so much, Karl, for your reply but you leave me even more confused than I was before.

          I read your Das Kapital, and a rip-roaring read it was too, full of suspense and drama, but when you use the words: as you would put it, that is only true by virtue of the fact that I am such a devoted disciple of yours that I took it word from word from your own blockbuster!

          So you leave my initial question unanswered. Now it would be a terrible thing for our beloved EU to be proved to have been built on a false premise and, as I am sure you are aware, your intellect is one of a colossus as compared with mine, which alas is of mere minnow proportions.

          So I really need you to answer that question, Karl, before the whole thing goes belly up!

          Respect, as the kids say now!


          • Karl Marx says:

            The point is, SC, that your original question was entirely facetious.

            You know full well that production in socialist countries never falls to zero, and therefore “defining the means of production” is not as preblematic as you suggest.

            In the socialist system production simply reaches an equilibrium depending on the desire to avoid work of the worker, the amount of violence used to “encourage” the worker to continue to produce (or perhaps I should say “to discourage opposition to socialism), and the level of human resource needed to impose that credible threat of violence compared to the number of people actually doing work.

            Given time, the workers will come to appreciate socialism , having been conditioned to that political and social structure. It may take a generation or 10, but they will get there I’m sure.


          • the cats bollocks says:

            May I say that political philosophy, or philosophy of any kind, is SC’s strong point?


          • Universal Hiss says:

            Very true.

            That philosophy course I did nearly sent me madder than I am now.

            You see that red thing there? Define red & thing. How do you know what is red? Define it.What is a thing?Does this thing exist?Why are you asking me all these questions?If you answer that question who is to say if the question is valid or the answer is reasonable to the way the question is posed?Who is qualified to answer the question or indeed pose the question?& on & on……….

            It made my head hurt & didn’t help me with a deeper understanding of anything except the realisation that philosophy is not my forte. Sorry SC!


          • Arnold says:


            As they used to say in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, before it ignominiously collapsed, “We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us”.

            PS: a Soviet-era joke.

            Q: What is 300 yards long and eats cabbage?
            A: The queue outside a Moscow butcher’s.


          • Dear, dear, Karl Marx

            You posit that my …original question was entirely facetious

            It is with great grief that, as a loyal disciple of yours, that I realise that you are now criticising your own tenets.

            You cannot possibly begin to conceive of the damage which this does to other people’s beliefs (I, of course remain a dedicated disciple to the cause…)

            My meagre position is totally worthless, you have the sheer grace to recognise that reality, but I am aghast that you should undermine your own, long-regarded, position of authority over after such a long period of international esteem.

            What are you on tonight BTW?

            @the cats bollocks

            Thank you for your kind, indeed generous, comments but I am only the under-labourer etc. (ref: John Locke and all his prefatory bollocks in the Epistle to the Reader of his Essay Concerning Human Understanding.)


          • Sorry UH. But:

            From what I have read of you, philosophy is entirely your forte.

            You were messing with that analytical garbage. Karl Popper did for that decades ago… but people tend not to notice such things, the more especially if their pay-check is linked with it.

            Have a look at Anglo-American Idealism. One imagines there is much with which you will agree…


          • Universal Hiss says:

            Yes,you’re right,as bloody usual.

            The course was not good.The university in question does not have a good reputation for it’s philosophy department, despite it belonging to the Russell Group.(Does that mean much these days,apart for a marketing tool?)

            The Astrobiology course from the same university was excellent. I really enjoyed it.

            Perhaps I should give philosophy another go from another university.

            Strange we are talking of this.I had a mail a few days ago from the philosophy department inviting me to their new improved course.


          • Karl Marx says:

            Of course I am criticising my own political philosophy. They made sense in the middle of the 1800’s, but now it must be obvious how riddled with flaws they are.

            After all, I presupposed that human history started with a form of primitive communism: modern anthropologists and zoologist have now shown that is completely false. There never was a time of shared ownership. From the earliest days as primates, what could be owned was owned by a small group of alpha males, the beta males forming a middle class and with the omega males fitting in as best they can and taking the scraps from the table. Human society has always re-organised itself around this simple structure. Even communist societies degrade pretty quickly to the same structures. The Marxist view of history has been falsified right from its foundation. Human social structures do not change, only the circumstances on which they impose themselves change.

            Violence in any Marxist system becomes necessary to impose a contradictory social system on a society that refuse to conform to its structures. Conversely, the capitalist take-over of China has been achieved without a single shot fired since the underlying social order in China has reverted to nature and away from the artificially imposed structures of communism.

            I got it wrong. Apologies for any inconvenience caused,



          • Harris Manchester at Oxford. Only for mature students. A wonderful establishment with world class fellows. I cannot speak too highly.


          • @KM

            Thank you for that. Truly.

            Not my place to be thanked at all. Rather, let us remember Karl Popper and his empirical falsification, to which you generously alluded but without crediting the true hero.

            One of the greatest thinkers to affect our times. Now conveniently forgotten, once his thinking sounded the death knell of communism.

            Yet that insidious cancer returns to haunt us! We think we have escaped its clutches but its surly bonds re-entangles us.

            Falsifiability, the nail in the coffin of empiricism. Don’t get me wrong, empiricism has done a lot of good in so many aspects of life. But it is now beginning to do much more harm…

            *think AGW*


          • Karl Marx says:

            Well ironically Popper believed that Marxism wasn’t falsifiable. In practice it has been falsified in so many ways!

            For instance, I proposed that it was a lie that the interests of the worker and that of the capitalist were one and the same. However, that was because I focussed on the means of production. Consumption didn’t figure highly in my theories.

            By 1930 the concept of consumption being the other half of the capitalist equation was taking center stage. By the 1950s the modern capitalist was taking not 20% of the production of the worker, but 20% of the consumption of the worker. Once that had happened, wealthier workers inevitably meant wealthier capitalists, and the two parties were genuinely both benefitting from increased wealth. That really did knock a big hole in Marxist theory and left it listing somewhat to port.

            Finally the democratisation of capital by the Reaganites and Thatcherites left Marxism without a fig-leaf. The workers siezed their opportunity to obtain real property of their own and use freely available finance to fund their own dreams of becoming capitalists. Democracy became increasingly meritocratic and the concept of “class” weakened as capitalist societies become more vertically structured.

            Looking at human history from that perspective, one would come to the conclusion that genuine primitive society with only three levels of social class, no real wealth and no real ownership has developed to modern society with multiple social classes, great wealth and extensive ownership. This is the real synthesis, largely in opposition to Marxist synthesis. Consequently Popper was wrong, Marxism has been falsified by human development.


          • Hold on KM! I have seen these claims. They don’t add up to a ball of fog. Really.

            You are coming back to haunt, as I anticipated.

            Marxism was not science. Therefore one could not expect it to be empirically verifiable. So your argument falls away.

            (I am still a strong supporter, of course!)


          • Karl Marx says:

            Marxism is not science but then neither is history, but claimed historical fact can be disproved by the emergence of new indisputable observations.

            I stated that early humans existed in a co-operative community with shared ownership: it has been observed that this is a false statement.

            I stated that socialism was the inevitable replacement of capitalism: it has been observed that this is a false statement.

            I stated that the goals of the capitalist and the goals of the worker contradict each other: it has been observed that this is a false statement.

            I stated that proletarian revolution was inevitable: it has been observed that this is a false statement.

            I claimed that the workers being subject to capitalism was a result of their conditioning, and that being exposed to socialism for generations would convert them to a permanent belief in socialism: it has been observed that this is a false statement.


          • You are really taking this badly and it concerns me.

            It is not possible for one to prove anything, only to disprove what has been posited.

            But communism did great stuff, don’t forget it, please. It put a dog into space. It did something else which escapes me for a moment.

            Actually, they also did have quite a good medical system in Russia and the satellite states. True, there was nothing on the shelves in the shops, I saw that with my own eyes. But it made stocktaking so easy.

            You should really try and look on the positive aspects…


          • FFS says:

            Oh there is one thing that Marxism did achieve, and it is a very important thing. It alludes to the “dog in space” thing. Because what did the capitalists do when they saw a dog in space? They put a whole man on the moon.

            That’s the one thing Marxism achieved. It made capitalism up its game.


          • The logical flaw in that argument may be expressed thus:

            How did mankind manage to make any progress at all before Marxism’s benevolent effects visited it? ;-)


          • FFS says:

            Largely by accident


    • 170
      Blowing Whistles says:

      And Eric Hobsbawn left a considerable sum of money to Warwick Uni – well well.

      And guess who was recruited for the commie / marxist cause at Warwick Uni

      Step forward Mr on Holiday in Israel (probably receiving new orders) this / last week Michael Dugher.

      Problem is the union barons still don’t get it – They have been sucked in by the moneylenders – who essentially control the left and the right. Neat trick that and has worked for some decades – but hey ho it’s all coming out into the open now.


  22. 31
    Moishe Fawkes says:

    Hebrew’s words for strength = Koach & Gevurah, but they mean different things; Ariel Sharon demonstrated both. http://bit.ly/1h8XHCP


  23. 34
    Anon. says:



    • 42
      M102 says:

      Chris Leslie is a tw@t.


    • 74
      The Bulgarian Ambassador says:

      Thank you for putting the tent up for my cousins. It saves me having to put them up myself – I am a bit busy this weekend.

      Do you mind showing the way to the benefit office on Monday? They are new here.


    • 115
      Anonymous says:

      What amazes me is having observed their party destroy this country they moan about the cost of another party. Truly socialism is a mental illness and obvious Akers you go deaf and blind because they are already dumb.


  24. 40
    The Public's pissed off says says:

    Dave’s private member’s EU bill was designed to fail, it’s another blindingly obvious piece of pantomime, to be seen doing something, but with no intention of delivering anything of substance.

    We’re sick and tired of this shit. Fuck the LibLabCon and it’s treasonous scum.


    • 103
      The EU In Vote Campaign... says:

      Ha da da dee da hada hada da da
      Oh, it’s no use
      Flash light
      Red light
      Neon light
      Ooh, stop light


  25. 43
    The Public's pissed off says says:

    Yep and once we’re out, we’re coming for the traitors. Full treason trials are necessary.


    • 52
      Learning from Europe says:

      Why not inquisitions ? As the Lords suggested, put their feet to the fire.

      Then throw them at ATOS to compete in the market place against the R’oma on benefit street.


  26. 44

    One might have expected a really cheap remark from Lord Lidl.


  27. 54

    It is rapidly approaching the point when the only way out of the stinking EU will be armed insurrection .


  28. 57
    Tom Catesby. says:

    Vote UKIP get a referendum.


    • 84
      The British Public says:

      A referendum is a means to an end, as indeed, voting UKIP would be.

      What we want is genuine democracy and freedom.


      • 105
        Out of the EU now says:

        Indeed however they would have to win 327 seats and they will be lucky to win one. If Labour do get back in then now you have witnessed mandleston and Kinnock in action then there will be no escape.

        I utterly totally wholeheartedly despise the EU but I am sensible enough to understand I must not allow Labour to get in for another 5 years. If they do then its all over we will become so entrenched only war will change the situation.

        Remember Lisbon and the Traitors in Labour.


        • 110
          Ms Beckett aged 17 3/4 says:

          I watched the signing of the Lisbon treaty and I cried. I want all empty ink pens dead


        • 223
          Traitor Watch says:


        • 424
          Grow a pair and vote UKIP says:

          If Labour did get in, then it would make the tories sort their shit out and get a proper conservative leader, for the next GE. More people might be persuaded to vote UKIP, also.

          We may lose a battle in 2015 but the war would not be over.

          Only a vote for UKIP makes sense now.


  29. 66
    i says:

    dany fink
    danny boy is de,ad now it’s all abt i fink that i fink this.


  30. 72
    i says:

    david own.
    all he wants is for someone to say to him that they owe him.
    he loves ovi, the brave one. he is full of surprises. when all is said and dune he likes to switch to pickle.


  31. 73
    Not Blowing Whistles says:

    Confirmation that the UK Justice System was completely corrupted by 2003 under Labour – as per findings of Operation Tiberius:


    Good attention to Turkish drug gangs in the article. Perhaps Dave’s motivation.


    • 102
      FFS says:

      Oh, so we didn’t know the police are corrupt and rotten to the core?

      We didn’t know that it is the police that are turning a blind eye to drug dealing because they’ve been bought off?

      We didn’t think that perhaps the reason that the police can’t find drug dealers when any other fucker can is because so many of them are bent?

      The reason Al Capone was able to sell illicit booze was because the police were bent. The reason drug dealers in the UK are able to sell illicit drugs in the UK is because the police are bent.


      • 108
        Not Blowing Whistles says:

        Most suspected that, but seeing it in print confirms.

        The buying off of the CPS / Court staff etc., and implication for judges (perhaps helped by the judgemental site) confirms things nicely.

        Now there is precedent for some behind fridge cleaning methinks.


    • 134
      Blowing Whistles says:

      And I said on here a few weeks ago that the pigs were part of the drug running cartels and what did I get back but a load of abuse.

      I told you – blinkered doubting Tom asses so.


      • 155
        Not Blowing Whistles says:

        No abuse from me.

        This does strengthen your hand somewhat.

        The article speaks also of the endemic corruption which exists in the CPS and court staff also, which is something you highlight.

        However, it stops short at discussing the corruption that is alleged to exist in the law firms, maybe for legal reasons ? ** Cast Iron Irony **


        • 163
          Blowing Whistles says:

          I accept that you did not abuse NBW, I didn’t mean to point it at you. Others some of the more braincell challenged on here though – the usual riff raff who make ‘knee jerk reactions’ who don’t think for a minute or more about what they’ve just read.

          Indeed your ref to the CPS / Court staff – is relevant to the maladministration by admin staff – but don’t for one second think that the wigs are not a party ‘controlling it all’.

          The law firms – and what of the 96 (not sure of exact number at present) companies who ‘have had their names withheld’ from the public who were also deeply involved in hacking / criminal abuse and my old mentioning too many times ‘entrapment & blackmail?


          • Not Blowing Whistles says:

            No probs with me :-)

            The maladministration that was not mentioned regarding the law firms though is relevant to pleb gate.

            Didn’t M!tchell have some paperwork ‘delayed’ which meant that he was prevented from having certain matters cleared due to administrative error which prevented any chance of him returning to cabinet once he had cleared his name over the original allegations ?

            Such errors going on in the courts happen on a daily basis with their staff. Particularly nasty for the closed family courts where such errors lead to children being unnecessarily kept from their parents in many cases.


          • Blowing Whistles says:

            NBW – as somewhat stated previously (and no I will not be giving any details just yet) a case is due to come before the courts in April – the whole legal trade body know that they have a very difficult one coming at them – and the evidence is already part of the case. It only remains for the merest hint of bias from ‘one wig’ and they are all going down. Every law firm in this country is a part of the deception upon and theft from the British Public. EVERY Law Firm.


          • Universal Hiss says:

            There should be no such thing as closed courts ever.

            It’s a total abuse of nearly everything this country should hold to be dear.

            Vulnerable people can be protected from the public gaze.Any contempt of court by publishing identities by any media could be dealt with severely & by that not a two line apology on page 38.Lengthy prison sentences for editors/owners +serious fines of gross turnovers.

            It can easily be done with the will to see fairness in the justice system.


          • Not Blowing Whistles says:

            In a free an open society closed courts have no place.

            If the courts are in camera this is expressing that society is not open.

            In the next few years it would be good to open up the family court system as the real dirt that the state has been getting up to has been concealed there.

            That is where the defenders of p’aedophiles and the social engineers who have been ripping families apart in the name of the state lurk.

            Stringing up approximately 85% of the people involved with that system would be a good move to reforming it. The damage inflicted on society will take a few generations to heal.


  32. 76
    No Woman No Cry says:

    Justice and Pizza,up the workers the Socialist Workers long may they support Blessed Mark they are certain to fail


  33. 91
    Phwooooar! says:

    Penny Mordaunt will be diving soon.


    • 106
      Anonymous says:

      Don’t watch it because of that lefty bitcj joe brand. The one that makes racist jokes but framed carol Thatcher for an innocent private comment. She is a typical left wing scumbag and not even funny


    • 118
      diners, drive-ins and dives says:

      A TV series inspired by the gay and lovely Tom Daley. Who’d have thunk he was gay and a pin up boy for raging poofter TV producers eh?


    • 119
      deep throat says:

      A TV series inspired by the gay and lovely Tom Daley. Who’d have thunk he was gay and a pin up boy for raging poofter TV producers eh?


  34. 93
    The Owl Of The Remove says:

    After knocking down a kid in my car, my wife told me to turn myself into the police.

    So I bought a uniform & started shooting black people


  35. 100
    Prime Minister David Cameron says:

    Is taking a “selfie” the same as having a wank?


  36. 116
    Who Makes up this Shit? Ed Miliband really says:


    • 127
      Ed Miliband's Parasite Party (for shirkers, not workers) says:

      “We’re going to build a better Britain together.”

      Better for sponging parasites. By order of Ed Miliband.

      You will obey.


    • 131
      Charmed old chap says:

      Oh!, I hadn’t realised you and your friends hadn’t finished destroying the old better Britain, personally I would like to see Liebour hierarchy in jail awaiting trial, for 13 years of criminal behaviour whilst attempting to try to organise a piss up in a brewery ,


    • 136
      Anon. says:


    • 160

      It will last all of five seconds.


      • 211
        Universal Hiss says:

        Don’t worry about a new Better Britain irritating phrase as Ed won’t be able to say it.

        Why do they do it? They all do it.Is it something to do with PPE degrees?Spads fresh from media studies?Focus groups?

        It’s about time there was a real shake up in the selection of MPs.

        No gender selection & guff like that.

        We need 200 MPs who have a degree in maths,physics,chemistry,biology,engineering,IT.

        200 who are business people who have run a successful business for a minimum of five years.

        50 arts graduates who can spell.

        Another 50 chosen at random sort of like jury selection.

        This won’t ever work. I know it’s silly but…..


        • 242
          Parliament says:

          Starchild, Citizens of the Universe, Recording Angels.
          We have returned to claim the Pyramids.
          Partying on the Mothership.
          I am the Mothership Connection.
          Gettin’ down in 3-D


        • 279

          The Party’s Over by Keith Sutherland, a smart guy and a friend of mine.

          Well worth a read.

          Jury system of government.


        • 330
          Jack Ketch says:

          This was more or less the proposal of Sir Oswald Mosely. He wanted MPs to represent “functional constituencies”, i.e. Business, Teachers, Unions, the Arts etc. The politicians of the day had him vilified and locked up.


    • 449
      Cor Blimey says:

      Going, going, GONE.


  37. 122
    The Secret State says:

    Sorry lads, we’ll get it right next time:


  38. 133
    Big Fat Bird says:

    #Straight or gay
    Everything’s A-OK
    Friendly scroungers there
    That’s where we meet
    Can you tell me how to get
    How to get to Benefits Street ?#


    • 139
      penny red says:

      Aren’t they just charming.


    • 140
      Gerry Rafferty says:

      Lounging your way down on Benefit Street
      Dead in your head you put up your feet
      Well, another crazy day
      You’ll drink the night away
      And forget about everything
      This Hagen Dasz makes you feel so cold
      So many people pay for your household
      And it’s taken you so long
      To find out you were wrong
      When you thought you were everything


      • 149
        Gerry Rafferty - Benefits Street cont... says:

        You used to think that it was so easy
        You used to say that it was so easy
        But you’re trying, you’re trying now
        Another year and then you’d be happy
        Just one more year and then you’d be happy
        But you’re crying, you’re crying now

        Way down the street there’s a light in his place
        He opens the door, he’s got that look on his face
        And he asks you where you’ve been
        You tell him who you’ve seen
        And you talk about anything
        He’s got this dream about buying some weed
        He’s gonna flog off an xbox, and steal what he needs
        And then he’ll settle down
        In a sofa with some brown,
        And forget about everything

        But you know he’ll always keep scrounging
        You know he’s never gonna stop sponging
        ‘Cause he’s taking, he’s taking the p!ss
        And when you wake up, it’s a new morning
        The weathers shit, and the street looks a tip,
        And you’re voting, you’re voting UKIP


  39. 146
    Penfold says:

    “”””Oh!” may need translating. I leave that to Commentators, below.

    Indeed sir, Hunts.


  40. 154
    No Woman No Cry says:

    Having watched Penny Mordaunt I am now retiring to my bedroom for a few moments reflection!


  41. 156
    Anon. says:

    Looks like that Labour Party idea of restricting free movement is toast.


  42. 158
    Essential product advice for David Cameron, Prime Minister says:

    Forget about problems you cannot deal with, like the EU, and focus on those you can, like your hair.

    Use Caboki for PMQ’s, UKIP for the EU.

    Vote UKIP


    • 209
      Tachybaptus says:

      People who think that hair loss preventers work are of the same intellectual kind as Labour voters: no sense of cause and effect.


      • 212
        Tachybaptus says:

        PS That really is Tachybaptus, if anyone cares. [Long silence.] I used the old name by mistake as it was stored on a different browser I was using to see the video.


        • 217
          • Tachybaptus says:

            Calvus cras.

            (And it is crass, too. I am not very vain, but very time I see my reflection I wince a bit.)


          • When I returned to England from South West Africa, in early December, I caught the typical English cold. I felt like death warmed up and as soon as I reached my hideaway on the River Inn, I did not bother shaving any more, simply because I felt too dire.

            Not having shaved since, on the shores of the Adriatic, it has frightened the hell out of my 96 year old mother, amongst others. This is at least my fourth beard, not that I have kept them that long, but I have not sought to trim it.

            Come the summer and it will be off as I love to let the sun get to my skin, in moderate quantities. But I have discovered that, for the first time, I have a beard that looks the part. Not quite Brian Blessed but given time…

            The fact is that I have at least doubled the quantity of hair above my neck. The next priority is to arrange a better distribution…


  43. 161
    UKIP or bust says:

    Another good sketch, keep ‘em coming.

    I like the way he referred to Mandelson as a pig very subtle and blatant at the same time.

    I take my hat off to him having to listen to Mandelson and not feel creeped-out, and what’s more, being able to bear even one minute of the Welsh windbag speaking.
    As far as I’m concerned he deserves a medal for being able to listen to a whole speech by the traitorous hypocrite.


  44. 162
    So what? It's a Free country you socialist authoritarian says:


    • 169
      i don't n eed no doctor says:

      Gloria yourself and facts are poles apart. You are labour therefore you lie.


    • 171
      Essential product advice for David Cameron, Prime Minister says:

      Forget about problems you cannot deal with, like the EU, and focus on those you can, like your eyesight.

      Good product review on gaming glasses from a UK teacher.

      Essential points:

      i) He gets three months off / year in order to game
      ii) Glasses for infrequent wearers will make you look a twat
      iii) They help you see your enemies if they are concealed on the gaming screen. Useful for PMQ’s.

      On a teachers salary, it is possible to spend £70 on a pair of gaming glasses.

      Leave the big issues, like the EU to UKIP, and keep working on the Angry Birds score.

      Vote UKIP!


    • 173

      The thought-terminating cliché.


    • 193
      sunderland is a labour ghetto thats why its shyte says:

      Unlike her othe colleague Dianne,Justice and Peace,abbot


      • 197
        comp kid says:

        Hunt himself went to a posh private
        school in Hampstead before Oxbridge.
        He doesn’t represent mine or my children’s
        experiences with state education.


        • 224
          Universal Hiss says:

          My daughter went to a rubbish comp.It was strange but about 10 people in her year were hard working & bright & helped each other.They all went on to good universitys & graduated,despite the fucking awful school.

          Her physics teacher was to be found on the golf course rather than the classroom.

          Her maths teacher admitted to me at a parents evening that although she understood pure maths she had difficulty teaching it.

          The rector resigned 2 weeks before the comp was judged as failing by all indicators.

          The school serves its purpose for the aspirations of most of the local populace.A glorified free baby sitting service.

          An utter & total disgrace.


    • 243
      The Hon. Tristram Julian William Hunt says:

      Thanks, Gloria. Now get them out for the boys again.


    • 299
      You can not be serious Gloria says:


    • 327
      i says:

      no matter what Glorio says, she is destined to be glorious. shw will glow in the dark. she is a worm. must be something in her genetic jeans.


      • 335
        Parliament says:

        I’ve got a string attached to my thing,
        Will she pull my string ?
        I can do my thing, underwater.

        Mr Wiggles, the worm, here.


        • 381
          Elsie Hargreaves 5 Railway Terrace Dewsbury says:

          Tell her to forget about sex and posing about.

          Get into her office and get working on the economy and finding three million new jobs for the people she represents.

          After all that is what she is paid for isn’t it.


  45. 166
    Truth says:

    I would imagine 99.9999% of the residents of Tottenham are well rid of Mark Duggan.


  46. 172
    Belmarsh category A says:


    • 174
      Cat A Prisoners are: says:

      Those whose escape would be highly dangerous to the public or national security. Offences that may result in consideration for Category A or Restricted Status include: Attempted murder, Manslaughter, Wounding with intent, Rape, Indecent assault, Robbery or conspiracy to rob (with firearms), Firearms offences, Importing or supplying Class A controlled drugs, Possessing or supplying explosives, Offences connected with terrorism and Offences under the Official Secrets Act


    • 176
      Cat A Prisoners are: says:

      Those whose escape would be highly dangerous to the public or national security. Offences that may result in consideration for Category A or Restricted Status include: Attempted murder, Manslaughter, Wounding with intent, R@pe, Indecent assault, Robbery or conspiracy to rob (with firearms), Firearms offences, Importing or supplying Class A controlled drugs, Possessing or supplying explosives, Offences connected with terrorism and Offences under the Official Secrets Act


    • 177
      i don't n eed no doctor says:

      What about a prisoner placement exchange with Russia. Send MacShane first.


    • 178


      Look at their alumni:

      Jeffrey Archer, Ian Huntley, Ronnie Biggs, Jonathan King, Jonathan Aitken…


    • 179
      MacShane is now in Cat C Brixton says:

      Category C Those who cannot be trusted in open conditions but who are unlikely to try to escape


    • 184
      Cool Hand MacShane says:

      There is no prison that can hold me.


    • 221
      The British Public says:

      Yes, sending him to Belmarsh was wrong. He ought to be breaking rocks in a quarry


    • 245
      Denis MacShameless says:

      The ‘A’ in Category A stands for Arsehole. Belmarsh was totally appropriate.


    • 258
      Tin foil top hat says:

      Been getting too much “vibrant enrichment” from the immigrant inmates hopefully…


  47. 186
    The Telegraph says:

    Exclusive: 95 Tory MPs call for EU law veto

    Parliament must be given the power to veto every aspect of EU law, 95 Conservative MPs demand in a letter to David Cameron.


    Kinl. Why Isn’t this already the law? It is so bleeding obvious.


    • 199
      The British public says:

      If the Tories are serious about winning the
      next election they need to adopt this law.
      Labour are trying to re-position themselves on
      immigration-an area in which they lack complete
      credibility with voters.
      This is one issue that can’t be put on the back


    • 200
      Casual Observer 5 says:

      They are offering Cameron their ‘full support’.

      That’s nice of them.


      • 269
        Dimmy Dave is the worst Prime Minister ever ! says:

        I’d offer him the chance of a quick and painless death.

        And then tell him it was only a cast-iron guarantee, and torture him to death over a period of several months.


    • 202
      Non taxable pikey says:

      Someone has been doing the maths in the marginals.

      UKIP for me.


    • 215
      The British Public says:

      Parliament has the power to veto every aspect of EU law


      • 222
        The Telegraph says:


        • 232
          Lampshade says:

          They are idiots. They don’t need to call for a right to a veto. Parliament can pass any laws it likes. They already have a power of veto. They merely need to man up and exercise it.


          • EU Watch says:

            In principle yes.

            But Gordon Brown did sign all of that away when he signed Lisbon.

            The UK has been beholden to EU law since 2009 when it lost its sovereignty.

            Now sovereignty has not been lost in the minds of the electorate, as none of this was explained to them.

            This disconnect is a significant source of tension.

            Solution – restore UK sovereignty and start again, but the EU will only allow that if the UK exits.


          • Demos says:

            Parliament can do what it likes. It can tell the EU to fuck off at any time it likes. The signature of a single twat (now out of office) on a piece paper does not change the fundamental right of the British people to determine their own future.


          • EU Watch says:


            But because in their minds they have given away sovereignty and have consented to that, they likely will not.

            This is where the tension is sourcing from – a fundamental disconnect between the ruling class and the people, and repeated across many member states of the EU at this point in time.

            It should resolve in favor of the people eventually, but might be a bit bumpy.


          • FFS says:

            ..and don’t forget that the judges have already sided with the EU some time before even Lisbon. Which means they will find any MP guilty of contravening EU law should he be brought to court. Not sure who would bring him to court though.


          • A broken crayon says:

            It fuckin’ needs SHOUTING from the rooftops that Brown had already been voted OUT OF OFFICE when he snuck away in the dead of night to put his crayon mark on that document.

            He had not a scrap of legitimacy to do so – so that means, in words even a Liebore thickie might understand, that his signature is totally invalid and of no consequence, so can be ignored. The UK is not legally Party to the Treaty.

            Why are our Parliamentarians and Press/TV perpetuating this disgusting deceit on the British people? When is this bloody revolution we keep hearing about going to start?


  48. 187
    sunderland is a labour ghetto thats why its shyte says:

    Is it possible to send him to a Gulag for the remainder of his sentence,its lovely news that he spent time in Belmarsh Quelle Surprise!


  49. 198
    Righties says:

    I hope all the racists and homophobes here die.


  50. 220
    Anders Behring Breivik says:

    I know of a nice island where they can all go for one of my special holidays


  51. 227
    Phoney Sign Languager says:

    Promise I’ll do better tomorrow.


  52. 228
    Rot In Pieces says:

    I’m pro Ìsrael but Ariel Sharon was a scumbag.


  53. 229
    The Scotland on Sunday could not be more wrong. says:


  54. 233
    Anon. says:


  55. 244
    Brillo says:


    • 255
      Claire Perry says:

      Do you like kittens?


    • 263
      Demos says:

      Are you a crook?


    • 333
      Parliament says:

      Can he dance underwater, and not get wet ?


      • 382
        Elsie Hargreaves 5 Railway Terrace Dewsbury says:

        Can he point us in the direction of the draft UK BIll of Rights his Party mentioned before the last Election?


        • 385
          Phil from Pentonville says:

          One way of reducing the Prison population is this.

          All prison sentences of under say 12 months are automatically suspended.

          If you are convicted before the Courts again within say a ten years period then you go to jail without early release.

          What are his views on this ?


          • Oscar from Reading says:

            Nice one Phil!

            it just goes to show that if you think about things you can come up with practical solutions which don’t mean more taxes.

            The problem with all the MPs is they are obsessed with their own expenses and pensions and what is on the menu in the Commons Diner.


    • 431
      Not a Labour MP says:

      When are you going to bring back the death penalty for treason?


  56. 253
    Even Lefties can't be doing with Owen says:


    • 312
      i says:

      owen jones. he like mow. even there is no dough. he is a fixer with not a bulb in sight. he blind, will go . he lacks the will to go. he stuck and stays. he needs putting down.


    • 343
      Parliament says:

      Shine ! Sun shine mong. Liquid sunshine.
      Sun shine. Sun shine mong. Liquid sunshine.

      – No more pencils, no more books. No more teachers dirty looks.
      – Here comes Ow-en.

      Shine ! Sun shine mong. Liquid sunshine.


  57. 257
    Nemesis says:

    Mandelson a rich socialite gay bastard who once posed as a socialist in order to gain power. Now this arrogant vile sod thinks he is above democracy and we plebs should not be given the responsibility of an EU referendum. What a fucking country this has turned out to be.


    • 259
      Universal Hiss says:

      A man who couldn’t tell the difference between guacamole & mushy peas.

      I take it his main residence is not in the north of England at present?


    • 291
      White rabbit says:

      We gave our country away very cheaply electing this..this, person.
      There’s a sort of death wish when traitorous, vain politicians such as Mandelson
      time and again get returned to power. Time we all grew up and got deadly serious.


  58. 260
    Diane Abbottomasbigasthemoon says:

    Fat?! You call that fat?? Compared to me he looks like he just crawled out of Belsen.


  59. 272
  60. 275
    Slut...Godfrey Bloom says:


    • 293
      Parliament says:

      Mr Wiggles the worm here,
      Coming at you from downtown Atlantis.

      This fish tail begin, where most fish tails end,
      With a school of fool fish,
      Playing hooky from school – and getting caught ;-)

      The mop and bucket affair man,
      What’cha doing fool ?
      Mr Wiggles here.


  61. 277
    Ed Balls - Shallow Chancer says:


    • 283
      Parliament, Mr Wiggles says:

      I’ve gotta string attached to my thing,
      Will you pull my String ?
      I can’t do my thing like I oughta.

      Mr Wiggles here ;-)


      • 297
        i says:

        ed balls, with his head in the balls. he who is headball. he no,s no net.
        he so so when it comes to the wets. he like it hard.
        thrusty. him. never appears to get thirsty. his need to vote is to support ais headball.


        • 315
          Parliament says:

          Oh !
          Mr Wiggles here,
          Saying ee-tiddly-ai, I’m talking about,
          Go Wiggle y’all !

          From the ocean comes the notion,
          That Ed Balls is a motion,
          Who cannot do his thing underwater.

          Check him out,
          He can slide between the molecules like an eel through seaweed,
          One slithering idiot.

          Mr Wiggles the worm here.


  62. 280
    White rabbit says:

    I’ve been busy. What’s happening ? Bit of trouble in Hamburg eh.


    • 290

      Problems in both Hamburg, DE and New Hamburg, Ontario.

      Take your pick.


      • 303
        Parliament says:

        Mr Wiggles here,
        Swimming on past your conscious mind,

        Toilet brush protest eh ?

        Mr. Wiggles here.

        Motor Booty affair is of more concern,
        But can they can do their thing underwater ?

        Go wiggle ;-)


        • 311

          Yes, I saw something about toilet brush protest but could not be arsed to read it. Was it just another load of MSM crap?


          • Parliament says:

            Mr Wiggles here, your DJ for the affair,
            Making my ladies squirm, like a bionic worm,
            We’ll be going down and not coming up for air ;-)

            (Turn the worm)

            The Motor Booty affair, that is the big one,
            And meet Mr Wiggles the worm.


      • 310
        White rabbit says:

        My spies on the ground tell me it’s eviction of squatters in red light district and violent complaint about gentrification of said district. Similar problems in Stow-on-the-Wold all the time.


        • 313

          I am not surprised at Stow-on-the-Wold.

          Especially since that brilliant Balti house had to close there in the 1990s. The best I ever visited! The price was very reasonable too.


          • WinkleStrassa says:

            Out out out


          • No. It definitely wasn’t Winkelstrasse. In fact, I don’t even recall a Winkelstrasse in Stow-on-the-Wold, but naturally stand to be corrected.

            This was in the premises situate where the Digbeths Licensed Café and Bistro is currently established in Digbeth Street, next door to the Royalist Hotel.

            My first ever Balti. It was magic!


  63. 285
    The G-Man says:


  64. 288
    Ah! Monika says:

    Man who wrote on Facebook that he’d ‘hurt someone’ is jailed for 20 years for brutally stabbing his ‘gentle giant’ neighbour to death 20 times ‘for no reason’.

    Mail on Sunday.

    This must be a record. Nineteen reincarnations


  65. 289
    Righties 45% v Lefties 49% says:


  66. 314
    Nickolos Grithththis says:


  67. 316
    BBC up to their normal lies again says:

    Up to 500 people have attended a vigil for Mark Duggan outside Tottenham police station.

    Looks like no more than a 100 on the photo and quite a few of those are crowd control and plod


    • 350
      FFS says:

      I took a look on google images earlier today and couldn’t see more than a dozen. The same group of people are photgrpahed from multiple angles but you can always see one poster referring to roger sylvester.


    • 351
      FFS says:

      I’m guessing the Duggan family forgot that the riots were sparked by the belief spread by the Duggan family that Mark Duggan was an all round good egg and family man that wouldn’t dream of carrying a gun.

      Now everyone knows he wasn’t quite like that the community is now sending the Duggan family a new message: “Fuck him”.


      • 353
        cheche says:

        How dare you attack the veracity of the BBC. Its says “up to” so any where between zero and …………”


      • 360
        Since you ask... says:

        You must all remember that there were lots of folk from Croydon just a long the road watching a football match. Now, I am not suggesting that any of them might like to wreak a little revenge on those basically responsible for the burning of large parts of their ‘hood’ down, but…….


      • 370
        No justice, no grease says:

        What are you talking about? Mark was a decent man. Just because he had a gun on him doesn’t mean he was a crook. He could’ve bought that gun for many reasons. He might have been on his way to a children’s football match and was planning to use the gun as a whistle. Or he might’ve been on his way to a Wild West reenactment show. Just because he was a known gang member of the Man Dem gang doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good guy. He was father to six children by nine women. That proves he was a good family man.


    • 434
      BBC Wankers says:

      “Up to 500″

      Includes 0, 1, 2, 3 …


  68. 319
    i says:

    ariel sharon. whiter than white.
    he shy like sharon to the end.
    did he die or did he survive.
    why did he need a coma when a single coat would have dunn,


  69. 324
    Parliament says:

    The motor booty where they shake their rump,
    The motor booty where they funk

    Living and jiving and digging the shit their in.


  70. 329
    Parliament says:

    Living and jiving and digging the skin he’s in,


    You’re a fish, I’m a water sign…


  71. 336
    Floating Voter says:

    If a desire to vote Labour is indicative of mental illness, can I use that fact to claim disability benefit?


  72. 346

    Balls – Alexander.

    Labour have denied it!

    Therefore it must be true.


    • 369
      Guido Fawkes says:

      Getting rid of this government would be the best way, but not by voting UKIP as they’d only form a coalition with the Tories, making a bad situation worse.


      • 372
        Mr Potato Head says:

        All the Liblabcons are traitors. Only UKIP will get the UK out of the clutches of the corrupt, unelected of Brussels. And if the Tories couldn’t care less who runs this country for the next five years, why should I?


    • 371
      Mr Potato Head says:

      “Ed Balls and Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas Alexander had to be ‘dragged apart’ when they almost came to blows during a blazing row, it was revealed last night.
      Former Cabinet Minister Tessa Jowell was forced to intervene, saying she feared the Labour rivals were about to get into a ‘fisticuffs’.
      The dust-up happened when the Shadow Chancellor and Mr Alexander clashed in a private room in the Commons over the party’s policy on Europe.”


  73. 374
    Rickytshirt says:


  74. 375
    Chuka Spear says:

    Jack straw on the Telly with a Spear over his Fireplace. Wonder what the history is behind that.


  75. 380
    -__- says:


  76. 383
    Yes Who Hogan Hyphen Howe says:


  77. 386
    If we are one nation why haven't we a vote in the Scottish referndum says:

    Turned on tv, Clegg spouting his usual rubbish, we are a family of nations, Scotland and England and in November ?, we have the Scottish referendum, family of nations and Scottish referendum, surely that in it’s own right is a load of bollocks.


  78. 387
  79. 388
    Labour divided over Europe and fisticuffs says:

    Just reading abou the balls /Alexander bust up over Europe.mentioned in seen elsewhere. We are finished if this lot get back in and Labour are still 9 % ahead FFs

    Labour is the nasty party and always have been.

    The only hope is that this is derailing the election preparations for Labour

    Vote anyone but Labour


    • 392
      Big Mac says:

      Beware of wee Scotch.


    • 401
      Mr Potato Head says:

      A labour government would indeed be a disaster. The Tories only hope is to ditch Cameron and put a euro-sceptic in charge. If they can’t be arsed to do this then why should anyone change their vote from UKIP to Tory, no matter how many seats Labour get?


      • 415

        The English voters are in the main desperate to be rid of Scotland, right away it rids us of about 41 labour MPs, not to mention the SNP grievance mongers in Westminster who so often vote with them.


  80. 400
    Jonny Divers says:

    All the leading Westminster MPs are going around frightening the Scots that they will lose out big time if they go independent?

    Why on earth would they do that? Why would they want to go on subsidizing us Scots ?

    It makes no logical sense so I am voting for independence.


    • 402
      Mr Potato Head says:

      Good for you. What a pity the English don’t get a vote to get rid of the Scots as well. But the English never get a vote on anything of importance. Every general election results in a Liblabcon government.


    • 409
      FFS says:

      The concernI have is our government is so corrupt Scotland will get independence but will still be able to elect MPs to Westminster AS WELL!


      • 411
        sunderland is a labour ghetto thats why its shyte says:

        Let the Jocks vote for independence,but no more devolution of powers to Edinburgh as a sop.


  81. 404
    Anonymous says:

    Like a wavering mirage viewed by world-weary UK voters amid the heat-stricken Westminster political desert, the much-promised EU In or Out referendum shuffles to and over the distant horizon with hypnotic regularity. No matter what the outcome of such a referendum I fear a result would be foisted upon us similar to that of the proposed new incinerator to be built up there in far-flung deepest Norfolk. The people of Norfolk solidly voted against it, and the government withdrew proposed tax-payer funding, but the irate folks of Norfolk will still be stuck with it, because the previously agreed cancellation of contract compensation terms would cripple the local council’s finances. I find it difficult to imagine that no similar crippling compensation terms would apply if we all voted to leave the EU


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