June 11th, 2013

Another Guardian “Deleted Voicemail” Moment

As Putin winds up Obama by offering whistleblower Edward Snowden asylum in Russia, the wheels are beginning to come off of the Glenn Greenwald global gloating tour. Yesterday, in his usual tetchy style, he let slip that he had been working with Snowden in February, before he started working for private NSA contractors Booz Allen in March. As Guy Walters notes it could look like Greenwald and Snowden planned to look for abuses, quite plausibly to serve their own agenda.

David Allen Green notes that no evidence has yet been produced that anyone working for the NSA or GCHQ breached any law whatsoever, or that any information was obtained without a court order. Anyone except Snowden; who likes to type under a hood so satellites cannot see his screen.

Bob Cesca raises real questions over the veracity of Greenwald’s journalism. First, his assertion – repeated four times in his original article – that the NSA has “direct access” to the Google, Apple, Microsoft etc servers, is contested by the companies themselves. They insist the NSA had to pass the safeguard of agreeing consent. Unless they are not telling the truth, the phrase “direct access” is an exaggeration. Guido is still sceptical of their denials, but the Guardian accused them of “direct access” without evidence.

Secondly, the Washington Post has amended its own original story, now saying that PRISM was used to “track foreign targets” and not US citizens. Greenwald has not changed his own story that US citizens were targeted. Why the change from WaPo; why the sudden, unexplained discrepancy?

Once again the Guardian have lit the touch-paper only for it to emerge that the most damning part of the story is evidence free. Maybe it was the NSA that deleted those Milly Dowler text messages? Guido understands that Alan Rusbridger is in New York at the moment. He should be mopping up not boasting…

See also: More Questions for Glenn Greenwald.

UPDATE: This, according to the Mail, is the girlfriend Snowden left in Hawaii:


163 Comments

  1. 1
    lolwut says:

    To be fair, if they listened to the voicemail it would have timebombed after a few days. They may as well have deleted it.

    Like

    • 7
      Daily Express says:

      poor old Guido, not liking the Guardian setting the news globally :(

      Like

      • 30
        David Cameron, 33rd degree arse bandit says:

        Look here swivel eyed little englander loons, you have my cast iron guarantee that the banker elite do not run and own the world and I in fact am the true leader of Britain, and not another blackmailed bum boy Israel-firster traitor puppet, like President Obumboy.

        Like

        • 43
          Alex Jones z***ist shill says:

          Nooo! It’s the Black Pope and the evil Nazis that control the NWO, and the Arabs run Hollywood! All J*ws are innocent and lovely.

          Like

          • Proto-Guido says:

            Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Leave Greenwald alone, he’s a lefty but I wont hold it against him, this time. Anti politics is more important than anti Guardian. This time.

            Like

          • GraunScheme says:

            Jooz are just a bit too white to be innocent of everything, don’t you think?

            Like

    • 16

      Like

    • 67
      Pussy Galore says:

      I don’t suppose that the Guardianistas are fans of James Bond films then.

      Like

    • 75
      EU Jimmy says:

      Not even Christmas would vote for Turkey.

      Like

  2. 2
    Julie b says:

    Listened to the EDL leader being interviewed by an Islamist supporter on radio 4 this morning .

    He rightly condemned any violence committed in the name of the EDL . That should be left to the armed wing. Self defence is no offence.

    Like

    • 8
      Pavlovs Dog says:

      Aha…the food is right here below the line. Nom Nom Nom.

      Like

    • 14
      Daily Express says:

      The EDL are the footsoldiers of UKIP.

      Like

      • 19
        Col Nut says:

        They’re not as effective as the footsoldiers of Islam.

        Like

        • 42
          Pavlovs Dog says:

          Do the research, you will find that the tobacco companies kill far more people every year than any extremist footsoldiers could ever achieve.

          In the UK the common wasp has killed more people than terrorists over the last 10 years.

          I feel we should direct the EDL to protect the UK citizenry from chip pans, ruffled stair carpets and poorly ventilated open gas fires.

          Like

          • Col Nut says:

            It’s violence and death from cultural and religious conflict though, that really makes the news. This represents prejudice from conflicting views that can threaten the cohesion of society and has caused countless wars down the centuries. American WASPs have caused much mayhem.

            Like

          • GraunScheme (false-equivalence ed.) says:

            How reassuring that is! Why, it puts such a whole new light on things.

            Like

      • 34
        Visit Wales, with Bomber Command says:

        The EDL are more likely to be disaffected ex. Labour voters actually.

        Like

        • 118
          Enough Bias says:

          …..How many suicide bombers have the EDL had ,killing innocent bystanders???. How many beheadings have the EDL carried out????How many EDL members are there in British prisons???..How many buildings and lives have the EDL destroyed???Who else is there to stand up to the twisted muslim extremists???? How many cultural centres,taxpayer funded do the EDL have???
          God save the Queen, (and give a bit of comfort to Phil )Also,beware of muslims
          bearing cups of tea and biscuits,they are untrustworthy,as i experienced in the 70’s….And,they are all in it together.Dont fall for it!!!!!

          Like

      • 86
        Anonymous says:

        I must admit, there is a manacing feel to some comments you read from ukip voters. Im not talking about the 70 year olds you see pictured at meetings, but the ones who post on line.They are too gloating somehow, its very off putting. Nigel is the same.

        Like

        • 123
          The Foreign Secretary says:

          I wish they all had some of Cameron’s humility.

          Like

        • 129
          Dee Lusional says:

          UKIP have given voice to those feeling disaffected and whose voice has been hidden for a long time. They have views, opinions, and votes like the rest of us.

          IMHO they are all bonkers but ” “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”

          Like

      • 103
        spleen says:

        the EDF are the footsoldiers of SIS more like. Different side of the same coin to the “islamist” SIS stooges. Do some research you lazy journos

        Like

        • 107
          SP4 BS says:

          I always think of then as angry football supporters who haven’t got any matches to go to.

          Like

          • GraunScheme says:

            >>angry football supporters

            Just so. They could be dispatched on a couple or 3 ‘football specials’ therefore no great threat to anyone and not really in the same league (hah!) as that of Islamists and their sympathisers which, after all, will constitute a sizeable portion of the Ummah.

            Like

    • 38
      Beeboid Fail says:

      A Beeboid on PM yesterday said that the aim of the young Islamic extremists was to convince their elders that they were not wanted in Britain. He seemed to think this was a bad thing to do.

      Like

      • 57
        Tom Catesby says:

        +10000. They needn’t go to all that trouble. Just ask the rest of us!

        Like

        • 114
          Julie b says:

          Most people would rather they’d never come . They certainly don’t improve the place . By not favouring repatriation, the EDL is ultra-liberal by the standards of the 1950s.

          Like

    • 49
      A nincumpoop says:

      Another listener here.

      I tried to remember his name – Tommy Robinson (Robertson?) I think.

      I tried to remember it because I was going to start a thread here saying that he was the most impressive politician I’ve heard on Today in a long time.

      Clearly expressed focussed thoughts. If they were the limit* of the EDL’s ambition they could be a powerful presence.

      *Yes, I know, Sudetenland.

      Like

      • 108
        SP4 BS says:

        I was unimpressed. Off on rants for no good reason.
        I didn’t quite catch it, but he didn’t really seem to be able to admit that there are such things as moderate muslims. No really, what about all the folks in the 80’s and 90s when we didn’t really know the difference between them, and other religions practiced somewhere near india.

        And I found it VERY strange that he should suggest that burning mosques was some sort of false flag operation.

        Like

        • 110
          Julie b says:

          There are no such thing as moderate Muslims . Islam by it’s very nature is not moderate. It is all encompassing moral and political philosophy.

          Like

          • SP4 BS says:

            I wonder. Some curry places serve beer. some don’t. I went to a place recently where they served pork.

            I wonder how come we ever get to see warsi’s face. or her hair for that matter.

            Like

          • The Foreign Secretary says:

            She has a face made for punching.

            Like

          • Julie b says:

            Serving beer or pork isn’t against Islam as far as I am aware.

            Like

          • FFS says:

            I know some Muslims who (occasionally) drink alcohol just as I know some Roman Catholics who use birth control. Funny how Roman Catholics are not all the same though.

            Get out a bit more love, as you are becoming a bitter bigoted old person.

            Like

          • Cro-magnon says:

            ” Some curry places serve beer”

            That would be the Sikh, Hindu, or Jaine ones.

            You are not overly familiar with this new fangled thinking thing, are you?

            Like

  3. 3
    Pavlovs Dog says:

    If you are going to ring the firkin bell, at least bring me something to chew on.

    Like

    • 80
      Pavlov's Cat says:

      I’ve got the nasty old sadist trained to bring me food every time I scratch his ankle.

      Like

  4. 4
    illogical says:

    The Guardian continues to impress with damp squib journalism
    Who would ever want to change a winning streak?

    Like

    • 36
      Alan Rush the Bridge says:

      I am in NY visiting my old chum Thompson who followed every directive I gave him when he was head of the BBC.
      I am also with my lawyer advising Thompson on how to avoid any extradition orders to report on his incompetence and corrupt practices when in office.
      Wave the red flag and buy the Guardian to learn the truth about everything.
      Red Jim Naughty for Prime Minister.

      Like

  5. 5
    Spartacus says:

    Yeo has taken the focus from Hodge the tax-dodge

    Like

  6. 6
    Need To Know Only says:

    Can’t see the problem.

    Sign the Official secrets act. Give those secrets to the papers. Expect to be banged up for a very long time for breaking the Official secrets act you signed.

    Simples.

    Like

    • 113
      Mark Austin says:

      Signing the Official Secrets Act is a meaningless ritual. I’ve done it (worked for GEC). All you are signing is a declaration that the terms of the Act have been explained to you. It doesn’t (as a lot of people think) impose greater restrictions than would apply to any other person.

      Like

  7. 9
    S-E Loon says:

    <de….. aaaaarrrrggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    "Commie bastard!"

    Like

  8. 12
    A Sovereign S says:

    So the yanks are spying on everyone in the UK and that’s just fine and dandy with our government? It isn’t fine with me. The British government are traitors if they fail to protect the privacy of British citizens. They should be working on systems to block all spies, including the Americans, from infringing our rights to privacy. In the meantime, they should not accept the credentials of the new US ambassador.

    Like

    • 24
      Tessa Tickles says:

      “The British government are traitors if they fail to protect the privacy of British citizens.

      They’re pretty much proved themselves to be traitors when they flooded the country with millions of immigrants – many of whom have no regard for our laws or culture -, ran up unmanageable debts, destroyed the nation’s armed forces and gave (and give) control of the UK to an unelected foreign president (old Hermy in Brussels).

      That they failed to protect our privacy as well doesn’t add a great deal to their guilt.

      Like

      • 29
        A Sovereign S says:

        True, but I was trying to stay on the topic.

        Like

        • 45
          BBC - Labour Says, Labour Says says:

          Talking of traitors – what about us as we promoted the Labour Message and supported mass immigration, less modern weapons for our forces, the destruction of our economy, political correctness gone mad, ad nauseum.
          We are Labour’s front line troops.

          Like

        • 50
          Pavlovs Dog says:

          C’mon..A dogs gotta eat .

          Like

        • 55
          David Cameron says:

          I am not a traitor I am a patriot!

          It’s you little englanders that are the problem, with your constant whining about democracy and freedom, control of your stupid borders and the ability to rid yourself of terrorist supporters, instead of having to grovel to unaccountable courts in distant lands.

          This is not something I can comprehend or support, I have written to our glorious President Rompuy, reminding him that I remain, at all times, a loyal servant of the EU.

          Like

      • 64
        Tom Catesby says:

        Still, we’ll put it on the charge sheet.

        Like

      • 87
        Anonymous says:

        Do keep up, that was Tony.

        Like

    • 35
      Col Nut says:

      The DVLA will probably sell your details to the Americans.

      Like

    • 40
      John Bellingham says:

      The UK has been spying on American citizens on behalf of the US Government at least since the late 1960s and the Pentagon Papers leaks. The US undoubtedly provides a reciprocal service and also operates for its own benefit. The UKUSA intelligence agreement that includes Canada, Oz and NZ just about REQUIRES the nations’ intelligence services to exchange information. The biggest surprise in all this is that anyone is surprised at all.

      Like

      • 44
        A British Citizen says:

        We know what they have been doing (the details of how they do it are for the geeks.) The point is, it has to stop. They have gone too far.

        Like

      • 56
        Indigo says:

        Then the EU/UK data privacy laws came along which – at least since December 2001 – make it an offence to move personal data outside the EU.

        Like

        • 115
          Mark Austin says:

          It is already an offence to send data out of the EU to countries that do not have Data Protection rules/laws broadly similar to the EUs. It is arguable the the USA does not conform to these standards, but no-one wants tio raise the issue.

          Like

          • Backdoor job says:

            Privacy is not for the little people

            Like

          • Indigo says:

            I have seen even lawyers assert that the US “Safe Harbor” registration is equivalent to EU data privacy protection but it is not. Safe Harbor registration is voluntary for “data collectors”, has to be renewed now and then but if you let your registration lapse you can still go on collection personal data and processing it and selling it etc etc.

            Incidentally, anyone who uses the international money exchange providers should read the small print. For at least one of them, the terms and conditions you sign give the provider permission to do what it likes with your data, even if you are in the EU.

            Like

      • 76
        Tom Catesby says:

        Given all these alleged arrangements which are very probably true and ‘high tech’ systems, it’s a wonder these ‘supra government bodies are not more sucessful at combatting ‘global terrorism’.
        These things have probably got more to do with keeping a check on the rest of us, than countering armed and organised groups and less dangerous for those involved.

        Like

    • 53
      Indigo says:

      It isn’t fine with me, either. And these revelations must be going down like a lead balloon in continental European countries where there are people still alive who remember life under occupation by hostile powers who used your private data obtained from others (with/without torture) to identify and disappear you.

      Whoever in this British government or the last agreed this arrangement with the US is a traitor. It sounds like a Blairite thing to do – no wonder Labour worked so hard to build databases from schools and churches and the NHS that they could join together … make it so much easier for the US to “survey” everyone.

      Part of me hopes that Britain will be expelled from the EU for this, as it must have violated the Maastricht Treaty.

      Like

    • 66
      Catch 22 Snowden says:

      GCHQ have IDENTICAL systems to Prism.

      Like

    • 82
      M says:

      Government see your citizenship as a loyalty card and spy on you like sainsburys does if you hold a nectar card

      Like

  9. 13
    This message will be automatically deleted after 14 days. says:

    This is the same Guardian who said the NOTW definitely deleted Milly Dowler’s voice mails when it turns out that the voice mails were deleted automatically deleted as they time expired by the phone company?

    Like

  10. 15
    Raving Loon says:

    Has anyone noticed that the new XBox One will spy on you even when it’s turned off?

    All very 1984 it seems.

    Like

    • 21
      Lord Stansted says:

      Every one should know that this applies to smart phones too. If they are gps-enabled (and most are) then remove the battery if you don’t want your locations recorded.

      Like

    • 28
      Col Nut says:

      And Tesco spy on you through your Tesco card.

      Like

      • 31
        A British Citizen says:

        Possession of a Tesco club card is voluntary. Being spied on by the Americans is not.

        Like

        • 65
          Col Nut says:

          Point taken but most Tesco card holders probably don’t know they are being spied on, and on a petty level many local councils spy on people and build up data without consent or or personal right of access. A sophisticated foreign intelligence service could get into the masses of data held on individuals by official bodies in the UK and extract what they think is useful.

          Like

          • Visit Wales, with Bomber Command says:

            I’d hardly call Tesco club card spying.

            It’s fairly benign recording your shopping habits and tailoring offers that fit your buying pattern. Offering me half price Fairy dish washer tablets or 25% off of wines and champagne, may encourage me to shop with them more often, but it’s hardly spying.

            Like

          • Bert says:

            It’s all data, though, and once it’s out of your hands you don’t know where it’ll end up. Say you are claiming that you live alone (e.g. to pay less council tax): your grocery bill suddenly doubles and remains high. Possibly it’s paranoid to imagine that the council will have access to that fact, but it’s not inconceivable. They already use helicopters and satellite imagery to check that extensions have planning permission; and it wasn’t so long ago that council-tax bands were to be revised, giving an army of council snoopers legal right of entry to private property.

            And all for the shitty 1% discount a supermarket loyalty card gives you.

            Like

          • Vald the Loudhailer says:

            Does the CIA sell horse burgers?

            Like

          • O Mores says:

            Giving all our data to the yanks didn’t stop the horse burger scandal. Nor did it stop a beheading in Woolwich.

            Like

    • 52
      Just Saying says:

      Then by the new Sanyo.

      Like

  11. 18
    Sloppy Journalism says:

    PM did an interview with the Guardian Journo out in Hong Kong. He openly admitted that he did not ask the bleeding obvious question. “Why did you flee to China of all the countries in the world Mr Snowden?”

    Like

    • 26
      Order of the OTT says:

      Like

    • 59
      Just Saying says:

      It was an unbelievably poor interview with Mair as the journalist was so hesitant and amateurish in his delivery it makes one wonder if he does not have a bright editor rewriting his poor work. Perhaps the woman that went with him was better?
      Guardian boasting it was their scoop but other USA bloggers and papers had it also.

      Like

      • 63
        When Messenger becomes Carer says:

        The journo has become too emotionally involved anyway. He now believes he has a care of duty for Mr Snowden.

        Like

    • 72
      China the No1 spy. says:

      This is the bit that makes absolutely no sense. Why does a freedom whistleblower run to China?

      Like

  12. 20
    nmj says:

    I think they wanted the story to be true, so didn’t bother checking properly, as they just couldn’t resist the anti-American/ anti-Tory impulse to publish and try to cause embarassment

    Like

    • 98
      Anonymous says:

      Did you read the Guardian posts on sunday ? it makes you wonder what these people do when not writing to the Graun, i think 80% of them were complete nutters !

      Like

  13. 22
    carol thatcher says:

    in 30 years of editing the society column for ‘exchange & mart’ i have never been aware of snoopy

    Like

  14. 27
    BBC News Editor says:

    We take all our stories from the Guardian, so they *must* be true.

    Like

    • 37
      A British Citizen says:

      The BBC do not have any stories. They peddle propaganda and provide distractions. When was the last time the BBC did any serious journalism? I really can’t remember – probably not in this century, at any rate.

      Like

    • 81
      Shredder Unit spokesman says:

      Newsnight has never heard of Savile or Hall. It’s official.

      Like

  15. 47
    Old Blind Pugh says:

    You can tell how much the disclosure of things like PRISM is important to governments, by the noise generated by such governments, at first denials then saying that it has harmed “national Security”, how much our lot knows about PRISM goodness knows. Governments like to control the lives of people in their domain, knowledge of what the population does gives power to governments. PRISM probably surveys this blog, so HMG would dearly like to know where Geedo gets his information to so that they will not get red faces. Western governments are getting very jumpy trying to find reds under the bed and the old major communist countries of Russia and China get rattled when foreign ideas attract their populations. Governments love control their populations it makes it nice and easy for them to get upto some sort of skulduggery to profit themselves and their chums

    Like

  16. 48
    Gremalkin says:

    C’mon Guido shooting the messenger does n’t help.

    Like

  17. 54
    Anonymous says:

    All the firms at the centre of this deny the NSA has ‘direct’ access to their servers – and this is probably true. Instead the traffic destined for, and routed through, say, Google is likely then being passed through another, third party server operated on behalf of the NSA. The bigger issue, which people don’t seem to completely understand, is the NSA and others have developed storage and database technologies that allow them to scoop ALL traffic and store it forever. if you come on their radar (even by error) they can then go back years into your digital life and piece together (create) a story that fits their view of who you might be …

    Like

    • 92
      SP4 BS says:

      do you know what “https” means?

      its pretty much secret what goes on between you and the webserver (the real webserver), any intermediate steps can’t see what you’re up to.

      Like

      • 99
        An honest Tory says:

        Unfortunately nonsense. There are no guarantees of secrecy provided by any mechanism. There are a number of options to help but even these are limited. I like Ixquick as a search engine since it gives an eay option to use a proxy IP address – something I may have to use to stop Guido modding me.

        Like

        • 101
          SP4 BS says:

          you just seem to have answered “no” to my question there.
          Note I used the word “pretty much” too. to indicate i didnt mean 100%.

          Like

          • An honest Tory says:

            I am fully aware of https. I am equally aware that even those sites flagged as using https almost always have intermediates using http which provide vulnerability. And in answer to the comment below – I agree about the risk of Ixquick – I just like the idea of promoting an alternative to google and using the proxy facility to annoy modders.

            Like

        • 112
          Anonymous says:

          I wouldn’t be surprised if ixquick isn’t an invention of the CIA to funnel all the people who would like to keep their web presence private (innocently or otherwise) into a nice little folder for them to examine. Would save them a lot of time and trouble scouring the rest of the net.

          Over here Mr Terrorost/Kiddy Fiddler, we’ve a nice secret search engine that’ll ensure noone knows what the fuck you’re looking for.

          Like

    • 117
      Burley's bangers says:

      Correct.

      Facebook et al saying that the NSA do not have direct access, probably means that they need to enter a username and password first!

      Like

  18. 58
    House Master says:

    Why are Continental Quilts now called Duvets?

    Like

    • 77
      Sir William Waad says:

      Why were they ever called ‘continental quilts’? Dr Johnson knew them as ‘duvets’.

      Like

      • 104
        Bert says:

        Quote:

        The subtle interrelation of our culture with those of other nations is embedded throughout English and there are plenty of surprises: who knew that Dr Johnson mentioned a duvet or that James VI of Scotland returned from Oslo in 1589 with the toast skol? That mortgage literally means “death grip” or that the Russian word for station is vokzal, a corruption of Vauxhall, because when a Russian delegation stopped to enjoy the pleasure gardens there in the 1840s its members took the word on the sign to mean just that?

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/non_fictionreviews/3672520/How-English-became-English.html

        Thanks, Sir William, you prompted me to look that up!

        Like

  19. 62
    Anonymous says:

    As for the UK, GCHQ and others can’t instruct the Americans to break laws on their behalf, but they can discuss people they might be interested in and, conveniently, can then accept intel gathered by other sources even if it breaks UK law as long as the materials was offered without any specific request having been made. As for the NSA, the details released show the NSA can cause any electronic communication to be routed through the US (and the NSA systems) by adjusting the price of bandwidth – this is mentioned on one of the slides but the media seems largely incapable of understanding how important this is.

    Like

  20. 70
    Sir William Waad says:

    So, which is more likely?

    1. The US spying service can read all our internet traffic but chooses not to; or

    2. The US spying service can read all our internet traffic, and does.

    Like

    • 143
      Old Blind Pugh says:

      Probably no.2 Bill with an Ultra Motty Botty to scan as they go, highlighting anything of immediate interest, and storing the rest “just in case”

      Like

  21. 73
    Ah! Monika says:

    It won’t be beyond the capability of Putin to give Snowden a new identity and send him back home to spy afresh.

    Like

  22. 74
    Demetrius Skortou says:

    The yanks have been spying on us for years, (see 2011 Telegraph article below).

    Consider the following account (see my E-mail below) of these unmarked aircraft/helicopters, that have been flying around our estate, for over 10 years now.

    No one in government, or the CAA/NATS, seems to know why these unmarked aircraft have just been circuling around Tabard Gradens.

    These unmarked planes are coming from a base in Farnborough, Hampshire.
    On board are military personnel, with evesdropping equipment, which allow them to monitor/intercept mobile/home telephone calls and the internet.

    These planes are being funded by a US black operations group.
    For over ten years now, I have sent 300 E-Mails to try and find out why these aircraft, are circuling above our estate, and other parts of London.

    I have come up against a government brick wall of silence, over this matter.

    ————————————————————————————–

    Londonist,

    I was reading an article (Why do Heathrow’s Planes, Fly Over Central London?), written in the Londonists web site, by Andy Thornley, (Jan 24th 2012).

    Maybe I can set the record straight about these planes?

    These aircraft are obviously the same unmarked aircraft, that have been circling around our estate which I have been complaining/writing about for 10 years now. (see both my e-mails & the 2011 Telegraph article attached below).

    These commercial passenger type unmarked aircraft/helicopters, are actually being used as spy planes.

    Inside these unmarked aircraft, there are “Mission Packs”, surveillance equipment that are being used to pry into peoples mobile & home telephone conversations and as well as view what an individual is looking at on the Internet!

    It’s clever, that the intelligence services are using airplanes, that are seemingly going into Heathrow Airport. Their not!!

    For 18 hours every day, 365 days a year, these mysterious unmarked aircraft, begin their flights at about 6:30am until late at night, at, 11:00pm. That’s the equivalent of flying from London to Tokyo………..non stop, 365 days a year!!

    I have checked with both the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) & the National Air Traffic System (NATS). According to both, there should not be any aircraft flying around our estate or other parts of London.

    None of these aircraft are actually registered with the CAA or the NATS. Therefore, these unmarked aircraft are being used by the military, who, are not required by any laws, rules or regulations to have any markings on them in the first place!

    All these aircraft have, are bogus flags on their tailfins. It seems to me that who ever thought up this camouflage idea, has taken this idea from magicians, a bit of miss direction, has been applied here. Because, this is the first thing that the eye sees, when people look up and see that these aircraft have a flag on their tailfins, they take no more notice of it, because they believe they are just looking at commercial planes, going into land at Heathrow. However, it seems not to occur to anyone, that if they looked a bit more carefully, they would notice, that there are no company logos nor serial markings on any of them!

    Don’t take my word for it. Do your own checking and you will realise that you and all the other people I have been telling about these planes, have incorrectly mistaken these aircraft as ordinary passenger aircraft.

    The unnecessary levels of noise & pollution these low flying planes have been giving off has obviously been authorised, by someone within this government.

    Has any extra money been changing hands, to allow these low flying morons to fly around parts of London, waking up residents, early hours of the mornings, every day?

    Why is this happening. Why does it have to continue to happen?

    Perhaps, for the first time in at least 10 years, your newspaper may be able to get to the bottom of this mystery, once and for all, so we (Londoners) may be able to get some decent sleep, instead, of constantly, being woken up by these unnecessary flights by these unmarked aircraft.

    If you do happen to see these aircraft again, one of them, has a blue underbelly and a bogus British Flag on its tail fin!

    To my knowledge, there has never been any legitimate aircraft flying over our air space & into Heathrow Airport!

    If any aircraft has no proper registered markings on them, then they are not commercial passenger aircraft……..period!!!!

    Yours Sincerely,

    Demetrius Skortou

    THE TELEGRAPH ARTICLE — 2011

    The Metropolitan Police has secret spy planes capable of eavesdropping on mobile phone calls from the sky. The existence of the fleet of planes – each costing at least £3 million to purchase and hundreds of thousands more to operate – has never been publicly disclosed.

    The police have being using the planes since at least 1997. The disclosure of the spending, which is not detailed in official accounts, comes as the police face 20 per cent cuts in their budget, creating fears that hundreds of support staff will lose their jobs and the number of officers reduced. Despite the cuts the Met’s secret fixed wing aircraft fleet is still flying regular sorties over London from a base at Farnborough airfield, in Hampshire.

    The planes have apparently been fitted with secret surveillance equipment capable of intercepting mobile phone calls or eavesdropping on conversations. They are understood to be similar to surveillance planes available to MI5 which have been used in anti-terrorism operations and were used to help West Midlands Police track suspects connected to a plot to kidnap and behead a British Muslim soldier.

    One of the planes is a Cessna F04, which can carry up to 14 passengers or be fitted with specially integrated patrol mission packs. We have been asked not to disclose full details of the aircraft on security grounds. The twin engine craft are operated separately from the Met’s Air Support Unit which has three helicopters and flies hundreds of hours a month in support of police operations around the capital at a cost of £3 million a year.

    Last week a Metropolitan Police spokesman refused to discuss its use of the fixed wing aircraft but insisted it has gone through a “full” procurement process. However members of the Metropolitan Police Authority, which scrutinises the force’s spending said they had never been told of the existence of the aircraft. According to Civil Aviation Authority records, the aircraft is registered to a firm called Nor Leasing.

    There is no trace of the firm on any other official record and its business address registered with the CAA is actually a branch of Mail Boxes Etc, which offers a virtual office services and mail forwarding, in Surbiton, south-west London. Another Cessna was also previously registered to Nor Leasing at the same address and at another service address in Kensington, west London. In 1997 one of the original individuals listed as “trading as” Nor Leasing was John Carnt who at the time was a senior Metropolitan Police detective.

    Superintendent Carnt was the then head of the Serious and Economic Crime Group, which was set up to combat major fraud, money laundering and art and antiques thefts. The pattern of hidden spending is believed to have been established by Tony Williams, a former assistant finance director at Scotland Yard, who established a secret web of companies for use in specialist undercover operations. But Mr Williams also used the same techniques to steal millions of pounds from the force to set himself up as a bogus Scottish “laird”. Williams was accused of stealing more than £4 million from Scotland Yard. He was jailed for seven years in 1995.

    Metropolitan Police Authority member James Cleverly last night said he was totally unaware that the Met had any fixed wing aircraft.

    Mr Cleverly, who also sits on the authority’s counter terrorism and protective services committee, which examines the force’s covert work, said: “This is not something that I have been made aware of or have had the opportunity to scrutinise. “In the light of the tight financial situation we are facing and the cuts being imposed on the police service it is imperative that we examine any assets that could be construed as a ‘luxury’.

    “I would expect full disclosure of details of this to the MPA to enable us to examine whether it represents good value for money for the police service.”

    Mark Demery

    Head of External Relations

    LONDONASSEMBLY CITY HALL

    THE QUEEN’S WALK LONDON SE1 2AA

    020 7983 5769 07973 191 635

    Visit the London Assembly website:www.london.gov.uk/assembly

    Follow us on Twitter: @LondonAssembly

    Follow us on Facebook: London Assembly

    Like

  23. 78
    Wonderful,eh? says:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=383_1370795784

    Lee Rigby’s a dog according to the enrichers.

    Like

  24. 89
    Becky says:

    You call that a “girlfriend” .

    I call it a “tart” .

    All these men who want to save us from Big Brother politicians are all the same: sooner rather than later their trousers are around their ankles.

    Like

    • 100
      An honest Tory says:

      Does the reverse also apply. Are men caught with trousers round ankles more likely to be protectors of privacy? If so does this make “Diamond Bo” Johnson, Tim Yeo et al natural allies of the Guardian?

      Like

    • 105
      SP4 BS says:

      Send her to a nunnery or make her wear a burka !

      On a different note, it always seems the case that theres some sort of sexual smear for anyone who wrongs the US government. I think if i were to do so, I’d make sure there were some dodgy photos in my past, seems safer than the alternatives.

      Like

    • 134
      Normal Guy says:

      Seems to pass muster. What’s not to like?

      Like

    • 141
      Anon E Mouse says:

      You’re entitled to your opinion. I however would like to offer my services in (up)close protection. Where do I join the queue ?

      Like

    • 147
      Old Blind Pugh says:

      Female bitchiness creeping in me thinks

      Like

  25. 91
    Bonkers Absolutely 100% Bonkers says:

    Mr Snowden is Bonkers.

    Would any sane person swap this for a hotel room in China and a Guardianista journo?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2339202/Lindsay-Mills-girlfriend-Edward-Snowden-Woman-NSA-leaker-left-member-acrobat-troupe.html

    Like

  26. 109
    Larry The Cat says:

    How come a geek gets a woman like that. Just who is she working for?

    Like

  27. 120

    Well, he could have left her with some clothes, the swine.

    Like

  28. 131
    parsifal says:

    They don’t need access tot he companies servers. About 12 years ago an ISP called Cogent Communications started providing unfeasibly cheap internet bandwidth to ISP’s. Many ISP’s decided to use them and they became so prevalent that most internet data has to pass through their routers at some point. The rumour at the time was that a CIA front organisation had provided the funding that allowed them to sell their service so cheaply. If this were the case then the data would be easily available without the need to have access to anbody’s servers.

    Like

  29. 132

    Calls himself a whistleblower, I call it a liberty. We must all know that anything we watch, or communicate on the web, is noted by someone somewhere. 99.9% is most probably uninteresting or if of interest, only to a very limited audience. It is the remaining 0.1% that is of great interest to a selected audience, who pick up snippets of information, put together with other snippets a larger picture starts to emerge. Bingo here come the good guys!

    Like

    • 135
      British Citizen says:

      Whether my life is exciting or dull is none of your damned business, and it certainly isn’t the business of the Americans.

      Like

  30. 138
    Sharptooth says:

    If we pick up a muslim death plot, I’m sure we’ll apologise.

    Like

    • 140
      La Reconquista says:

      Deport the muslims and all of the illegal immigrants and the problem is well on the way to being solved

      Like

      • 159
        Henry Plantagenet says:

        Whilst I have sympathy with the view expressed about wrong-doing immigrants, think deeper and you will find a lot of very extremely unpleasant Brits who have been here since year dot. Perhaps we should start issuing one-way tickets to Australia again.

        Like

  31. 148
    level of proof says:

    Alan Rusbridger must prove he did not delete Molly Flower text messages. If he can’t then he is guilty as hell. If so then drain the swamp and close the Guardian down.

    Like

    • 151
      The Cittie of Yorke says:

      Proving a negative is always difficult. Usually impossible. What standard to you wish to hold him to? Beyond reasonable doubt?

      Like

  32. 153
    Windmill Dave says:

    How’s the piano playing going, Alan?

    I’m thinking of takiing up fiddling while Britain burns.

    After all I expect if I really need to do anything that nice Mr Barosso, you know the former Marxist fanatic, will give me my instructions.

    Like

  33. 156
    Gaye Mann (Mrs) says:

    Damage Limitation 101 – make the person the story and ignore the substantive issue

    Like

  34. 160
    Mr Shilliday says:

    Odd that Mr Fawkes will defend liberty and freedom from government, but only if it’s on issues not broken by the Guardian. Food for thought….

    Like

  35. 163
    superbowlpatriot says:

    Ms. Mills is reading Ray Kurzweil’s ode to transistors. Cute.

    Like


Media Reader

Cameron Mustn’t Scupper TV Debates | Steve Hewlett
Double Standards of Police Leaks to Guardian | Mail
Legalise Pot | NY Times
How Police Hack Phones and Email | Times
Guardian Journalists Paid Above Market Worth | Tom Utley
Phillip Blond is the Opposite of a Champagne Socialist | Speccie
Did FBI Informant Hack The Sun? | Guardian
Newmark Was No Fishing Expedition | Press Gazette
Shapps: Voting UKIP Risks Ebola | Sun
Naomi Wolf is a Feminist Conspiracy Theorist | New Statesman
The Insane Conspiracy Theories of Naomi Wolf | Vox


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Chris Bryant talks to the Times Diary about a famous gay actor:

“I don’t think I’ve had sex with him. He says we had sex in Clapham. I’m fairly certain I’ve never had sex south of the river”



Progressive Inclusion Champion says:

Great to hear Carswell call for inclusive policies and that UKIP must stand for first and second generation immigrants as much as the English.


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