December 28th, 2012

IPPR Still Doesn’t Get It

ipprLeft-wing think tanks the IPPR and the Resolution Foundation have a joint report out advocating higher “living wages” forced on employers by regulatory diktat. Guido doesn’t dispute their claim that low pay increases the welfare bill by billions. Brown’s blizzard of redistributive bureaucracy and welfare transfers effectively left taxpayers subsidising low paying employers. Low paid workers pay taxes which they then get back in benefits…

Apart from the obviously wasteful tax-to-pay-benefits merry-go-round their policy has another fundamental flaw completely ignored by the wonks; it will increase wage costs and reduce corporate competitiveness, further undermining economic growth. Wouldn’t it be better instead to just raise the personal income tax threshold to £12,500 – as advocated by the LibDem’s Danny Alexander – effectively taking minimum wage earners out of income tax. It will have the same outcome – raising take home pay – without undermining competitiveness.

Raising the tax threshold is simple, has popular appeal and will benefit those on low earnings proportionately more than those on higher earnings. It will take some pressure off the “squeezed middle” and won’t increase the welfare trap. It isn’t a perfect policy, prominent Orange-booker Mark Littlewood, a wonk at the rival Institute for Economic Affairs, is wary that it will result in millions of voters being unaffected by the basic rate of income tax who therefore won’t be incentivised to vote for parties and policies that favour lower taxes. He fears that low-earners will have no reason to buy-in to tax cuts if they are taken out of the income tax bracket entirely.

IPPR’s wonkish sophistry may well appeal to Ed Miliband, IPPR’s Will Straw is likely to become a Labour MP at the next election. If in 2015 the coalition parties are both standing on a platform of reducing taxes on the working poor with the Labour Party standing on a platform of taxing the poor and increasing welfare benefits, Miliband will be on the wrong side of the dividing line. “Vote Labour and tax the poor” is a winning campaign slogan – for the coalition parties…


  1. 1
    Kebab Time says:

    Is this the same IPPR that got a handout from EU?

    The living wage campaign is basic proof that the left do not understand business.

  2. 2
    Roger says:

    We need to remember that forcing employers to pay low-paid staff more always leads to jobs going off shore. Employers should pay a decent wage; but it does no good to anyone to simply make it profitable to sack everyone and employ people in the third world instead.

  3. 3
    Jagbulon says:

    Minimum wage exports jobs and takes away people’s rights. I should be allowed to work for any wage I want.
    Reducing taxation on earnings, both private and corporate, is the way forwards to improve our economy. Corporation tax is plain silly, it takes away from companies the ability to invest and to create jobs.

    As for the fabian think tanks. They self evidently have major problems in the thinking department.

  4. 4
    SMEe says:

    Sounds like you’re making Lib Dem policy for them – they could easily extend their commitment for a £10,000 starting point for income tax to £12,000 without creating new burdens for business (except for administering the tax system for free and getting penalised when they make a mistake)

  5. 5
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    The “minimum wage” is in fact a compulsory unemployment level. It hits those with low productivity hardest.

    The state telling people they cannot be employed is immoral.

  6. 6
    Anonymous says:

    Raising the tax threshold to £12,500 does not force anyone pay more to their staff but it should give them an incentive to put in more hours. It will, howver, cost jobs in the clerical “factories” on HMRC and DWP and among the outsouce suppliers who sponsor IPPR studies.

  7. 7
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    They should also make that the maximum in benefits that can be claimed.

  8. 8
    Just saying. says:

    Censorship exists on the internet. This blog for example will block anyone who questions it’s pious narrative from posting. Advocates of free speech, my arse.

  9. 9
    Pawn Sandwich says:

    A think tank works like this – two idiots with an IQ of 85 combine their thoughts on a subject and the outcome will equal the thoughts of a genius with an IQ of 170. Yes?

  10. 10
    Sally *innocentface* says:

    Anyone know my Twitter password?

  11. 11
    Moussa Koussa's pet meerkat says:

    Ther are no real left wing think tanks.

    they are all “free market” or Conservative.

    There are dozens of groups in the UK which call themselves free market or conservative thinktanks, but they have a remarkably consistent agenda. They tend to oppose the laws which protect us from banks and corporations; to demand the privatisation of state assets; to argue that the rich should pay less tax.

  12. 12
    Operation Crossbow says:

    WE should pay MP’s the minimum wage. Then watch it rise like Jimmy Savile’s penis in a girls school.

  13. 13

    If we weren’t in a situation where the government takes away some of the low-paid workers wages in order to give it back as benefits after the over-bloated civil service has taken it’s cut, employers would be paying a far more decent wage.

  14. 14

    What’s not to like?

  15. 15
    Jimmy says:

    So to sum up the thirty year rule papers, Attila the Hen:

    1. Tried to scrap the NHS
    2. Wanted to hand over the Falklands
    3. Was best mates with the country’s top kiddyfiddler
    4. Used the foreign office to defy natural selection and find her idiot son, chipping in a grand to make it look like the taxpayer wasn’t footing the bill.

    And this is just 1982, before she went completely doolally. The next few years should be fun.

  16. 16
    State sponsored jobs. says:

    Tax credits create lower wages. It really is that simples.

  17. 17
    George Bush, Margaret Thatcher, Nelson Mandela, Prince Philip, Hugo Chavez says:

    We’re gonna kick the bucket any minute!

  18. 18
    I M Hacker says:

    last time I checked it was “5tupid5lut”. IP info says it was changed from the office laptop of the Right Hon. John Bercow …. the one hidden under the floorboards he looks at his porn on … that I’ve hacked … nasty stuff!

  19. 19
    Polly twaddle says:

    Champagne Socialists have no interest in the poor. Their interest is in propagating their own species, Homo Redistrutioniensis, hte apogee of evolution. A kind of human cuckoo, incapable of making anything that can be sold and thus obliged to lobby for an ever larger government sector on which it feeds parasitically.

  20. 20

    Actually, it does a public service by screening the majority from the worst excesses of lefty trolls. Make your voice heard on Labour Lost or CiF.

  21. 21
    Bonkers PMQs says:

  22. 22
    Little Johnny B13COW says:

    Uglyoldslut ?

  23. 23
    Charlatans says:

    I am livid! As a Falkland veteran who played my part to continue to give the BBC the freedom to mandatorily Tax me, they want to blatantly ignore their obligation to inform this country of the major news issues that affect this Nation and the world, like the revelatory Falklands conflict SECRET papers story and Thatcher.
    I have just watched BBC News Channel (10.30 am) on Freeview and headlining is the distressful story regarding the little girl, Anjum-Wilkinson, who was abducted by her father to Pakistan, followed by an anti-smoking campaign advertising story, both items taking up the majority of the news:.

    Important as the BBC headlining stories are, why they are so out of sync and scale of National importance, to the UK highly consequential historical story about National Secret papers released about the Falklands campaign?
    Are the other 2 UK major online or TV UK national news contributors, (Sky and Google news), wrong with their unanimous agreement of the importance of headlining the Secret Thatcher Falklands papers released to the British nation?

    Or could it be that the BBC are playing politics again by possibly not wanting to highlight that Thatcher actually stood up to the US President in our National interest? Maybe, in the BBC mindset this might remind the masses that Blair, lied and connived to deceive this Nation in illegal wars at enormous cost.

  24. 24
    hypocritical oaths says:

    p!ss poor summing up … F- … see me after class

    the blair years will be SO much better … assuming they haven’t all been shredded ‘by accident’

  25. 25
    Jimmy says:

    You’re quite right, I left out the bit about the proposal to scrap free education. Sorry.

  26. 26
    Too much information says:

    You ever had the sort of epic dump where you feel like you’ve emptied half your insides out and you feel almost 2 stone lighter?

    Just had one of those.

  27. 27
    Bill d'Sarse says:

    Bang on the money.

  28. 28
    All this boaz/jahbulon bollocks is getting tedious says:

    Someone posts on a daily basis implying that Handycock is a Freemason. Do we know this for a fact? It’s like the old Idi Amin stories: he was rotten enough as it was, there was no need to claim he was also a cannibal. Handycock is a twat of the first order, there’s no need to claim he’s a mason. It doesn’t make him any more of a cock.

  29. 29
    Observer says:

    So you have a socialist government that spends and spends, stokes inflation of housing prices far beyond anything that an ordinary worker can afford; then say their wages must be massively increased so they can afford these hugely inflated prices. The economics of the mad house; or it’s other name Laboromics.

  30. 30
    Just saying. says:

    Your assumptions of who i am and my political affilliations are way off the mark. I cannot post under my real name, which you would probably recognise, because i said something the fat blog controller didn’t like. And that’s my point.

  31. 31
    Penfold says:

    The left will of course argue that subsidies, via benefits are better than tax cuts, as subsidies tie voters to pursestringholders, and tax cuts mean floating voters who will be looking to the broader picture and are more fickle.

    Not surprising really that the left wants benefits/subsidies rather than tax cuts, as any tax free earning element is of course a subsidy to the rich and therefore heretical.

  32. 32
    Hiram Abiff says:

    We in the Illuminati New World Order Freemasons wish you all a merry boaz and a happy new jahbulon.

  33. 33

    That’s one interpretation of events, which will be quite popular with Lefty foot-scrapings too young to have lived through them or too blinded with hatred and envy to make a critical appraisal. Reforming the NHS is as necessary now as it was then.
    The CDS was against relieving the Falklands. Baroness Thatcher considered the options before taking the political decision to reclaim British territory against the military opinion. Everyone loved Saville in those days – the institutionally left-wing BBC was hiding Jimmy’s proclivities from the masses. Maggie had just seen off a deliberate attempt by the looney left to overthrow the democratically elected government using the Miners as cannon fodder. The girl done good.

  34. 34
    Steve Miliband says:

    What’s the difference between minimum wage and living wage? Is it the one where you get Sky plus?

  35. 35
    Correction says:

    Education is not free. Someone has to pay for it.

  36. 36
    Handycock (Teen Fondler) says:

    But I am a freemason and the fact that I am an embarrassment to my fellow freemasons does not bother me in the slightest. Boaz brother.

  37. 37
    TrT says:

    “Wouldn’t it be better instead to just raise the personal income tax threshold to £12,500 – as advocated by the LibDem’s Danny Alexander”

    I always thought 20% over £20k had a good ring to it.

  38. 38
    Moussa Koussa's pet meerkat says:

    Shock News!

    Margaret Thatcher suffered from a gambling addiction.

  39. 39
    Dr Pepper says:

    These Labour people want to make the poor dependent on The State, taking their money one minute and then giving it back the next and expecting them to be grateful.

    Far better to let those on modest incomes keep their money in the first place and cut out the bureaucracy.

  40. 40
    Ctesibius says:

    Right now I have assets of over £1 million. That makes me a millionaire.

    Ed Balls and Ed Milliband have repeatedly said that millionaires (like me) will be given a £40,000 cheque by David Cameron and George Osborne. I have heard them say it many times on the BBC so it must be true.

    I haven’t had my cheque yet. Who should I call to get it.

  41. 41
    One Pound Fish Very Very Good says:

    Labour take tasty 6 pound fish and give you back rotting 5 pound fish. Not very very good.

  42. 42
    rabid hamster says:

    here here, well spoken bruce!

  43. 43
    Anonymous says:

    1. What, the same NHS that is so good that it’s copied the world over…….not?
    2. As a leftie traitor, I thought you would have given her top marks for that.
    4. Hardly compares with losing about 7 billion in a gold sale by durrr brain Brown does it Jim?

  44. 44
    Margaret Moran says:

    You called for me? You did say rotting fish?

  45. 45
    zero credibility says:


  46. 46
    Labour=Looter's Friend says:

    Amusing to see Labour queuing up to subsidise Murdoch and his Sky empire with their benefits splurge plans.

  47. 47
    $48m a year in alimony. Dassa spicy meatball! says:

    I guess Silvio will be throwing fewer bunga bunga parties from now on.

  48. 48
    Margaret Moran says:

    Dear Guido,

    Thank you for sending me your best wishes (and the delicious mince pies!). Yes, I’m feeling a lot better now and am off to Spain for a well-earned rest.

  49. 49
    Labour says:

    We’ll look into this straightaway. First, we need you to send us a cheque for £1m to cover overheads and administrative costs. Don’t worry, we’ll spend our money wisely, I mean your money wisely.

  50. 50
    Worried of Wilmslow says:

    National Insurance is effectively a tax. If the tax threshhold went up to, say, £12,500 and NI was called lower rate tax at 12.5%, the low earners would still be paying tax. They would therefore tend not to be in favour of tax increases.

    A variation of this with different numbers might allow us to get rid of Brown’s foul handout and free up a few thousand ill-employed people to find productive jobs.

  51. 51
    Tay King-dePisse says:

    “Taxation without representation is tyranny.” James Otis, lawyer, Massachusetts Bay Colony 1765, explaining why the Crown ought not levy taxes upon colonists which did not benefit the colony, and in which the colonists had no say in the legislation setting up the tax.

    “Representation without taxation is ALSO tyranny, when you allow votes of non-payers to determine how much the payers will have to pay.” Tay King-dePisse, all-round nuisance and gadfly 2012, explaining why representatives of those “without skin in the game” will have to create a milch-cow class of taxpayers, as they spend the proceeds whilst the recipients are personally unencumbered.

  52. 52
    Anonymous says:

    Cross border taxation is the only tool to stop employment going aboard.

    The world is not equal. Whatever anyone does it can never be equal. Daylight, temperature, water supply etc.

    But simply the rest of the world is further away.

    Transport costs should force sustainable local work. But this world is so crazy that transport inside a country is taxed at a much higher rate than between countries. Tax trading (eg. Starbucks) is more important than the actual product. The false accounting on “green” issues is just ridiculous, but also contributes to the false location of companies.

    Get out of the EU and start being sustainable. The technology is there to provide a future, if they would just allow an element of real competition for the people of the UK.

  53. 53
    Karma says:

    Cancer will get you sooner or later.

  54. 54
    Simon Hefferlump says:

    Oh Labour get it, their master plan to build a client state of voters addicted to handouts and welfare payments.

  55. 55
    Tony Bliar 33rd degree freemason says:

    Brother Handycock is a 3rd degree freemason

    And remember brothers…

    ” It’s amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S Truman

    Jahbulon to you all

  56. 56
    Tony Bliar 33rd degree freemason says:

    Brother Handycock is a 3rd degree freemason

    And remember brothers…

    ” It’s amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Pres. H S Truman

    Jahbulon to you all

  57. 57
    Sunderland a dormitory town awaiting the arrivals of Bulgarians ,Romanians and Romas in 2013 things says:

    Low wages in real terms are here to stay in the UK we are a nation in decline and that means we are going to have less money to spend and that includes the State,Labour may promise the Promised Land at the next election but only fools will vote for themand sadly many live in the North.

  58. 58

    It is not only jobs which go offshore, it is people. Those who have been entering their last decade of employment will have been wondering if it is worth pushing the boat out and take on extra risk only to find themselves subsidising the feckless.

    Often, they will decide it is not worth the candle. So they sell up and take themselves and their savings to another place at a loss to the UK. Being foreign residents they then can buy property in the UK without facing CGT on it. That situation applies pretty universally internationally, if it did not then no one would invest abroad and the property m@rket would be in even a worse state than it is now. Clearly one declares the rental income if it is a buy-to-let. It is then possible to come to an arrangement with HMRC where they do not require annual returns as the position is static.

    In the new host country, a similar state of non-return situation can be set up providing one does not derive income there. One may acquire property in yet another country (or countries) as a holiday property.

    From such a base, and because one still has the spirit of adventure, one may set up businesses in yet further places using incorporated status to keep oneself out of the income spotlight. Ireland has a good tax regime for such enterprises, as our host is well aware.

    One may consider not wanting all those must have goods which attract premium prices. Barter is an excellent way of swerving around tax regimes.

    Finally, one looks very carefully at investment opportunities in fields which can fly under the radar. Fine art is one, classic cars is another. You must know your subject in these fields though. You can buy and sell and providing you have chosen your starting point correctly, you do not have to account to any nosey beggars for the profit you make.

    If more people did this, squandering governments would be starved of taxes to pay for their conceits. So it is morally defensible as well.

  59. 59
    I bet this guy will be popular here! says:

  60. 60
    Rupert Murdoch the Anti-Christ says:

    I was her friend!

  61. 61
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    In fact more productive people tend to employ less productive people, so they can spend more time on what they are most productive at.

    This is why we should move away from harmful wage-based taxation and to taxing rent-seeking, such as the rental value of land, patents and copyrights.

  62. 62
    Freudian Slipper says:

    His tweet reveals more about himself that it does of Thatcher. He’s a bore with a chip on his shoulder who seeks to blames his failures on others.

  63. 63
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    No, just tax location instead of the workers.

    It’s what Adam Smith would do.

  64. 64
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    I would suggest starting your own blog and linking to it, IIF you have anything pertinent to the current thread.

  65. 65
    Anonymous says:

    Censorship is when a person can not voice an opinion.

    When a person is asked to leave when voicing an opinion in another persons house that is a freedom.

    Your opinions can be made, all you need is your own site.
    However, to be heard requires the cooperation of others and without removing their freedoms it might be beyond your ability.

  66. 66
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    >Tried to scrap the NHS

    If only. Took a few attempts for the peoples of eastern europe to scrap the USSR. But eventually the evil of state rationing was defeated.

  67. 67
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    What teachers were working for nothing? Or do you mean your usual extortion funded education?

  68. 68
    The Bottle Fed Triplet says:

    I wonder what she’s like when she has PMT?

  69. 69
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    Mrs Thatcher (PBUH) saved the country from the left. This is why they continue to hate her.

  70. 70
  71. 71
    Braindead in Hylton Red House says:

    I will vote Labour til I die.

  72. 72
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    Debt inflation temporarily hides the damage done to the economy by taxation of incomes.

    They then blame the banks…

  73. 73
    Red Egg Millitit... says:

    Aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh bless him.

    Did he finish ‘is educashun?

  74. 74
    Anonymous says:

    or mortuary

  75. 75
    Anonymous says:

    With election fraud at record levels up North most Labour voters are in fact dead

  76. 76
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    0% over £∞

    and tax rental values instead.

  77. 77
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    It’s much more insidious than that…

    Any money they do earn is removed via means testing trapping them on benefits and voting for…

  78. 78
    Not now Cato says:

    The government should stamp out “internships” – companies getting young people to work for them paying £0 – put that up your minimum wage pipe and smoke it.

  79. 79
    PC Nazim al-Azeer says:

    Come on, own up. Who did it?

    Pig’s head left outside Mu slim centre

  80. 80
    The real Moussa Koussa's pet meerkat says:

    You are not the real me

  81. 81
    chips with everything says:

    A typical leftie.

  82. 82
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    The state crèches and benefit addict classes have delivered a low productivity workforce.

    A country can only be as wealthy as it is productive.

  83. 83

    Exactly. I did a blog about this too (, a rise in income tax threshold allows a full time worker roughly the same take home pay. A LW is madness.

  84. 84
    Bernie Hogan Bogan says:

    Hiya Brother ‘All this Boaz/ Jahbulon bollocks,’ I entirely agree with you. It cannot help the Grand Master with his manoeuvrings to outflank the Government over plebgate, with all this exposure of the Brotherhood, on this site. It has to stop. Jahbulon.

  85. 85
    The Bottle Fed Triplet says:

    Oh Dear CN. Were you there? Perhaps you were too young and your opinion of Mrs. T is based on someone else’s prejudice. The plucky little Argentines were just asking for what was rightfully theirs in Las Malvinas, weren’t they?. Ignore the Navy Mechanics School, the dissidents blindfolded and repeatedly pushed down concrete steps, the mothers silently standing outside the Presidential Palace in BA holding pictures of their ‘disappeared’ children, the political opponents taken for a one-way helicopter ride over the sea, the teenage conscripts forced to take part in an illegal invasion. After the Falklands war, Galtieri went and Argentina had a change of government from a military junta to a slightly better form of democracy. Not perfect but…… Yeah right, Thatcher was a “warmonger” as you say. At least she waited until they actually attacked the Falklands before she became a warmongering sociopath. You’ll have to help me here Chris, I still cannot recall when and where Saddam Hussein landed Iraqi troops on British territory. Isn’t that what forced Tony Bliar to kill all those people?

  86. 86
    Anonymous says:

    Piss off Frank

  87. 87
    Kate's Nurse says:

    It certainly won’t be dying of shame.

  88. 88
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    Probably Unemployed Web Dev soon with these attitudes to work, technology and “keepingyourmouthshutifyougotnothinggoodtosayism”

  89. 89
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    No need for seatbelts Allah will sort it…

  90. 90
    George Gideon Oliver Osborne says:

    I will give a cast iron guarantee,here and now,that the FTSE will not go same way as Spain.

    BREAKING NEWS: Spanish Stocks Are Getting Demolished

    If you don’t believe me,then kindly go short,I know I have.

  91. 91
    Anonymous says:

    What is wrong with hating the poor?

    Having less money is not being poor. Being poor is not having enough money for your equal place in your chosen society.

    For some years of my life I was running on over 10x the income of other years. My life was poorer in the high pay years than the freedom of the low pay years. The middle income years were the worst.

    To be poor is not related to an absolute number.

    But the biggest cause of a poor life style is the lack of choice and options. Fiddling with tax rates will not help if the the opportunities are not there because the government wants to experiment on social engineering with the EU.

    If they had the ability to care they would not talk about money. Instead our leaders would facilitate choices and competition. That means having industries and employment in the places were the people have communities.

    Allowing the farm and business land/buildings to be converted to house building land gets the owner a fat pay-out. But it makes new businesses impossible to start. Yes it is planning that needs attention, but not the attention it is getting. The changes will just increase the landowners profits, and low end overseas labour, and negate any long term business potential.

  92. 92
    The real Moussa Koussa's pet meerkat says:

    If they won’t eat bacon butties it shows they’re not interested in integrating.

  93. 93
    Sir William says:

    Low pay doesn’t increase the welfare bill. It reduces it, because the alternative to low pay is no pay.

    If people on the minimum wage could get a job that paid more than £6.19 an hour, they would, don’t you think? Whereas if somebody’s only employable at £6.00 an hour they are currently doomed either to the dole or unprotected black-market employment.

  94. 94
    The Paragnostic says:

    I didn’t know Will Straw was in the IPPR.

    Must stand for “Idiotic Pacifists Purveying Reefers”, I suppose.

  95. 95
    Sir William says:

    …..and then, when you become old and knackered, you can return here and make extensive use of the NHS.

  96. 96
    Big Momma says:

    Jimmy – You are Will Self and I claim my Liebor tax refund prize when they next get into power.

  97. 97
    Hargaret Modge, Labour MP and Hypocritical serial long term aggressive Tax Avoider + expenses thief says:

    Proper funny that.

    +100 !

  98. 98
    hank the cat says:

    Was that article for real?

  99. 99
    hank the cat says:

    Wonder what she is like having nookie?

  100. 100
    hank the cat says:

    With a living wage you also get lots of lager

  101. 101
    The real Moussa Koussa's pet meerkat says:

    George Osborne pretends the deficit is forcing him to cut public spending. But the Inland Revenue’s recent admission that it has a £10.2 billion backlog of 41,000 tax avoidance cases suggests other ways to balance the books.

    Osborne is cutting services because he wants to reshape government’s role, making it leaner and definitely much meaner.

    If “balancing the books” was his only motive, Osborne would be trying to cut tax avoidance.

    According to the Financial Times, the latest European bailout for Greece includes demands for “setting up tax courts … to accelerate rulings in disputed claims, which at present are delayed for years because of a huge backlog of cases, and allow delinquent taxpayers to be jailed rather than receive suspended sentences.”

    That might be one Greek lesson Osborne should learn.

  102. 102
    Gordon Broon's Edukashun Minister. says:

    Never heard of him, nor want to. Heard of Luddites however. Nice people, with the majority in my party.

  103. 103
    CarryHole is a complete Hunt says:

    I think so. Monbiot is too naive to lie.

  104. 104
    The Old Fella says:

    It doesn’t work like that, IQ does not equate to common sense

  105. 105
    Geordieboy says:

    Scrap the payroll tax.
    Scrap the green tax.
    Scrap the VAT on Energy Bills.
    Scrap the VAT on Fuel.

    That should give everyone a few more pounds to spend.

  106. 106
    Curly says:

    By chavs and MPs too.

  107. 107
    The Old Fella says:

    They won’t do that, because they do the same themselves

  108. 108
    Smig says:


  109. 109
    Faites vos jeux. says:

    You been reading my postings chum? Or just plagiarising?

    PS: You forgot QE2 and Mugabe

  110. 110
    Jimmy says:

    Looks like the whips are getting pretty tough when it comes to making backbenchers read planted questions.

  111. 111
    Faites vos jeux. says:

    .. and Tone, Bruin and Mandypandy suffered from a gambolling addiction

  112. 112
    Humpty Dump says:

    Sorry, there is no room for common sense on this blog. Door is over there >>>>

  113. 113

    One could do. But my father died at 97 and did not come back, save for short visits of a non-medical nature. My mother is now 95 and is very happy where she is.

    They were/are in France but the medical service where I am resident is rated the best in Europe. Why come back to the National Death Service? Why risk The Liverpool Care Pathway or its hidden equivalent in other “Service” areas?

    If we claim to be in a m@rket, then what is wrong with behaving as a normal component of any m@rket should behave?

  114. 114
    The Old Fella says:

    Ask her

  115. 115
    Humpty Dump says:

    You jest, Sir! 619 pence an hour will hardly cover the Sky subs, let alone the beer and fags.

  116. 116

    There are many on the dole who are in black-market employment where they are paid in cash. They don’t actually want any protection, thank you!

    Whilst not in any way condoning such practice, at least they have more enterprise than those who do nothing on spurious grounds.

    One saving grace is that the black economy results in a severe understatement of the economic situation. The blame for it can be laid fairly and squarely at the feet of the politicos who have enabled it to have occurred.

    The UK is not the only country to be hit by this. I see vast hidden economies in Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal. Those very countries which are also undermining the Euro. Coincidence or not?

  117. 117
    Libertarian says:

    Taxation is theft and a violation of the non-aggression principal of governance.

    That tax in this case is being used overtly against the people to make their labour less attractive for business to employ them is a form of overt oppression which Wittgenstein warned of (Tractatus 5.48)

    It is part of the communitarian dialectic trap – in this case the tax on business is to be used to fund the state in order to fund the benefits to keep those those otherwise not employed unemployed.

    The unemployed are kept in this enforced state of dependency through a total disincentivization of both themselves or business to change their status quo. The only beneficiary is the state which progressively expands to take direct control of the affairs of those who are dependent on it. The real benefits and motivation of the state are highly questionable though, as the gains are not material but rather of an oppressive power nature.

    The system would work better if the people were employed and were rewarded for their productive labour by business, as used to be the case.

    The ‘new’ model is unstable as it is sensitive to imbalances in tax receipts which will prompt two self reinforcing effects: Government will need to reduce benefits, and increase tax on business. This will reduce purchasing power of the benefit recipients affecting business and ultimately tax revenues. Companies will fold or pursue legal avoidance strategies leading to further state tax shortfalls to compensate for injurious taxation.

    Inflation will eventually kick the thing over once it becomes clear that the money in circulation has no value and is being artificially created. In the absence of abundant locally available natural resources to underpin the system, the system will collapse sooner than was evidenced by the USSR experiment.

  118. 118
  119. 119
    Honest View says:

    Quite right.
    I can never understand the blind, holy-cow worship of the NHS, existing along with endless stories of its inefficiency and sometimes cruelty, and a recognition that German, Swiss and Scandinavian health services (for starters) are much better.
    It’s one of the great mantras of modern politics: we must defend the NHS. Beyond criticism.
    The NHS is behind most of the interference of modern life, on drinking, smoking, obesity etc. The fact is that when people are irresponsible with their lives, other people, who have to pay for their treatment, are not unnaturally peeved. If people were made to bear the cost of poor life-styles, then maybe they’d do something about it.
    Think of the Friday night bingers- who can cheerfully pay for their treatment? The Good Samaritan is the only person I can think of.

  120. 120
    Johnny says says:

    Guidio said: “Wouldn’t it be better instead to just raise the personal income tax threshold to £12,500 – as advocated by the LibDem’s Danny Alexander – effectively taking minimum wage earners out of income tax. It will have the same outcome – raising take home pay – without undermining competitiveness.”

    It wouldn’t. Yes it would improve take home pay for the low paid but this push for a living wage *isn’t* only about that. The ‘savings’ are not real because the point of view of the campaign is about what it does to the government’s revenue not what it does to the wider economy.

    The cost to the economy is given as £6.5bn. Of that £3.6bn is tax revenue and a figure for benefits no longer being paid out. Of the £3.6bn now in the government’s hands, £1.2bn is then paid out in higher wages to low paid public sector workers so the claim is a net ‘saving’ of over £2bn.(3.6 – 1.2) What do you think will then happen to those billions left over? They’ll get spent! The cost to consumers is up and some of those consumers are the low paid. The cost to taxpayers is up and some of those taxpayers are the low paid.

    If they were more honest they’d just say ‘Pay a living wage to increase tax revenues’ because that is what it amounts to. A state mandated increase in wages which results in an increase in tax revenue, without having to put up tax rates.

    Putting up personal allowances is a great way of improving the take home pay of the low paid. It is dead simple and easy to implement. The problem is it would reduce government tax revenues so either require putting up taxes elsewhere which is too obvious, fiddling the high tax rate band even further downwards which is also too obvious or actually cutting spending to match the fall in revenue, and the latter isn’t on the cards.

  121. 121
    Honest View says:

    Oddly, as a small”c” conservative, I think a certain amount of tax is in principle a good thing.
    Having too many people feeling that they need have no responsiblity because they are not contributing, and uninterested because they just live without sharing the burden, however small, cannot be a healthy state of affairs.
    It also means that those who have a substantial part of their income taken by the state feel aggrieved to see so many not chipping in when the hat goes round.
    A bit of taxation for all is more conducive to responsiblity and is fairer.

  122. 122
    Dribbling Cretin, Beige Slacks, Purple Face says:

    I feel the same about the Tories – I’ll vote for them no matter what. Have done my whole life. Funny that neither of us can work out why nothing ever changes.

  123. 123
    Dribbling Cretin, Beige Slacks, Purple Face says:

    How odd, that’s also a perfect description of a certain T. Blair. But Thatcher was a conservative, so she was right, but Blair was Labour, so he was wrong. I think. I get confused sometimes.

  124. 124
    Smig says:

    One and the same, I thought.

  125. 125
    Smig says:

    If you think 1982 was bad, 1973/4 was really shit.

    Does this sound familiar…

  126. 126
    Smig says:

    I’d start with finding the 650 ill-informed, wasteful, incompetent charlatans of Westminster something productive to do.

    Manufacturing and selling cheap plastic toys with “Made in Hong Tyneside” to the Chinese would be a start.

  127. 127
    Blowing Whistles says:


  128. 128
    BBC Mong says:

    No F**kin’ way!!

    Our entire £8.2 billion pension fund has been invested in Green shite by our Head Of News.

    Stop spending on green taxe and my pension will be worth fuck all – just like the pensions our political wing (the Labour Party) destroyed.

  129. 129
    Blowing Whistles says:

    May I add to the complexity and confusion created to screw the ordinary taxpayer here in the UK. Statutory Instrument 1991 No. 859 came into force on 29th July 1991.

    The vast “majority” of Estate Agents, Lawyers, MP’s [lawyers inc] and yes even judges have been ‘ignoring the small print’ at point 4 of the original Instrument such that its heading is Manner of giving information.

    Many people have been diddled out of thousands upon thousands of pounds because the EA’s and legals have ‘turned a collective blind eye’ to No.859 where they are supposed to put things “In Writing” …

    When matters get heated and result in court proceedings – the EA’s and legals ‘unless’ the poor ignorant buyer tells them of 859 – get stitched up in court.

    It has been a highly fruitful conspiracy [the silence of those who know] for the deceivers since 1991 and the deceptions continue.

    The other big trick the legals and EA’s use is ‘Chinese whispers’ [See legal tome Agency] – and if the public ever really cotton on there will be trouble ahead in the house & son sons’ industry.

    tick, tock, tick, tock.

  130. 130
    Blowing Whistles says:

    It’d be simpler to just Scrap the EU – cheaper in the long run.

  131. 131
    Lemon Peel says:

    Good idea. Unpaid labour is a mainstay of the fake charities which have peppered outr High Streets with ‘shops’ that rely on avoiding taxes that legitimate businesses are subject to. Oxfam and the like. Their HQ staff are overpaid champagne socialist hypocrites , forever lobbying the government to send our national wealth abroad to dictators. It is time to shut down the whole rotten edifice of fake charity.

  132. 132

    Keeps the working man down and in his place, reliant on benefits. George Orwell explained it better in Wigan Pier but this is exactly how the middle class socialist wants things, controlling the working classes and making them ‘grateful’ for what they give us.

  133. 133
    The Medical Profession says:

    Not if we can help it

  134. 134
  135. 135
    Weatry says:


  136. 136
    Weatry says:

    WS is a smug,rabid socialist Hunt. Love to see his back against the stacked bricks.

  137. 137
    Thick as Shit MP says:

    I am still trying to work it out…….

    Far too difficult.

    So I will stick to what I am good at
    and my main job of claiming expenses!

  138. 138
    Weatry says:

    And we all suffered pain in our collective fundaments from Tone, Bruin and Mandypandy.

  139. 139
    Chicken-Licken says:

    That can’t be right CiaCh,remember the Magic Money Tree.

  140. 140

    I take it that the residents of Leicester are in the habit of discriminating against pigs.

  141. 141
    Cato Street Conspirator says:

    ‘ He fears that low-earners will have no reason to buy-in to tax cuts if they are taken out of the income tax bracket entirely.’

    Let’s check the bloke’s logic there: make them pay tax so they appreciate governments that cut taxes. Sounds interesting. And, like much of what the person says, self-servingly barmy.

  142. 142
    Cato Street Conspirator says:

    Did he say that? As an upper class socialist himself, I have every sympathy with his detestation of middle class socialists. But d you really think a man who fought for POUM in Spain really wanted to see a capitalist society without benefits, as opposed to a socialist one?

  143. 143
    David B says:

    I wonder how many of these people have worked in the private sector and understand the relationship between wages, competitiveness, profits and a companies ability to invest in plant and R&D for future growth and employment

  144. 144
    Airey Belvoir says:

    Or the ‘Duchesses’ pants drawer.

  145. 145
    Haller says:

    I Prefer Public Remuneration
    (not private)

  146. 146
    Airey Belvoir says:

    Handycock has passed through the ring. Jahbulon!

  147. 147
    Airey Belvoir says:


  148. 148
    I am just a modern guy says:

    The reality is that many people are going to vote UKIP. The more who do, the more change, for the better, we will have.

    Be positive, vote UKIP.

  149. 149
    yar of dar says:

    Presumably a living wage is one with which you can pay your own rent and buy food and fuel, whereas minimum wage will not and so the recipient requires in some way propping up by the tax-payer.

    Or, a living wage is one earned by someone who the market deems has sufficient skills, talent, education or experience, whereas a minimum wage is earned by someone who could be easily replaced by any other simpleton on the planet.

  150. 150
    Handycock (Teen Fondler) says:

    I too am the widow’s son. Boaz.

  151. 151
    kitler says:

    We could wrap them up with some onions and herbs and send them to Africa as part of our foreign aid comitment.

  152. 152
    Jonah Vark says:

    The solution for lifting people out of poverty is blindingly obvious. Don’t want people to smoke – slap a huge tax on tobacco. Don’t want people to drive – slap a huge tax on petrol. Don’t want people to be poor – tax them until they change their ways (and simultaneously raise revenue!).

  153. 153
    Dame Margaret Beckett, sit on it tories says:

    Who introduced minimum wage again?

    I remember tory cleaners being paid pennies an hour to clean their shit up.

  154. 154

    Ask Baroness Scotland. She knows all about low-paid workers.

  155. 155

    No. Take a look at their MP’s.

  156. 156
    Kinnochio says:

    You’re not Boris Johnson, are you?

  157. 157
    Anonymous says:

    Putting up tax allowances isn’t actually a very good way of helping the poor. It really helps the higher rate taxpayer….unless the higher rate tax band is reduced to compensate. And if you increase the tax allowance from £8k to £12k, how does that possibly help someone on £8k??

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