September 14th, 2011

Make Your Mind Up Time

Bad news for those supporting of a Palestinian State – The Palestine Liberation Organisation’s ambassador to the US said yesterday that the planned state should be free of Jews. Can any historians out there remind us of the last state to proclaim such an idea?

Only two Tory MPs are signed up to the EDM supporting the state and the debate is raging in the Foreign Office about whether the UK should or should not vote in favour Palestinian Statehood at the UN in a few weeks time This should make that decision a little easier…


  1. 1
    Anonymous says:

    So it’s alright for Israel to have a state consisting of only one race, but not Palestine? I see.


    • 2
      Sir William Waad says:

      Silly. Huge numbers of Arabs are Israeli citizens. Did you really not know that?


      • 13
        Tax Payer says:

        These people basically hate each other. How can they resolve their differences and live as neighbours until that changes?


        • 27
          Passing Wind says:

          They can’t.


        • 51
          Anonymous says:

          Billy, you were supposed to resign not post under Anonymous.


        • 56
          Anonymous says:

          Taxpayer, please enlighten us as to your reasoning; if you were surrounded by neighbours that were openly expressing their objective is to exterminate you & all your family,would that encourage you to feel love or hate for them?


          • Tax Payer says:

            No, I agree. I was just despairing of the impossibility of the situation.

            If people want peace then something has to change.


          • The Street says:

            We love to hate


          • Peter expat says:

            Perhaps if they behaved better, they wouldn’t be so universally loathed?

            We were quick enough with the Balfour Declaration giving them someone else’s land. I suppose if they’d got Uganda or Madagascar (both genuine alternatives at one time) we’d be ignoring the African’s plight.

            Shouldn’t we be at least as forthright supporting the Palestinians?

            Remind me why throughout Europe there were regular pogroms if they were just nice little old guys playing the violin?

            And for anyone who thinks UK antisemitism (something of a misnomer given that the Arabs are semitic,too) never existed, just checkout the Flook cartoon in the 1950’s and 1960’s Daily Mail. Who was the wicked landlord?


          • Aunt Mat says:

            These guys don’t seem to know how to get on.

            Their dispute affects our lives because of the volatility they cause to the oil markets.

            I think its worth letting them both know in no uncertain terms that neither of them are our friends, and our support will go to the one who proves that they can stabilise the oil market.


          • John77 says:

            Peter expat doesn’t understand that most of British anti-semitism was derived from the Jews role as money-lenders when the Catholic church banned usury and the Jews banned usury when lending to fellow-Jews so the only permitted money-lending was by Jews to Christians. The restrictions (look at the change in price of land when it gets planning permission today) created excessive profits, jealousy – and hatred from debtors who were paying far more interest than if there had been a free market. The Jews were not vicious – simply the price of borrowing went up (like houses in the south-east of England under current planning laws) until enough people were squeezed out to reduce demand to the maximum possible level of supply).
            A longer explanation would point out that Blair’s appointees to the National Trust are depriving poor people of homes in order to feather their own nests.


          • Remind me why throughout Europe there were regular pogroms if they were just nice little old guys playing the violin?

            Same reason there are pogroms now against the middle classes.

            When a philosophy tends to allow people to become richer by valuing things such as education, reading, speaking languages, playing music (especially the violin or piano, ask the Dragon Mothers), doing maths and trading, and puts the emphasis on strong family structures which are supportive, not exploitative or abusive, then somebody will quickly pop up yelling this is not fair and amounts to cheating. They will then legislate to strip them of their accumulated wealth. It’s just looting, but official.

            Although certain folk have been the highest profile victims of this thinking it has also been used in many other contexts e.g. the Ugandan Asians expelled by Amin, which is now a poor although it ought to be rich, and the Zoroastrians (Parsees), a group which is exceptionally intellectual and therefore being hounded by the Iranian government.

            Middle-class white males in stable monogamous relationships may have noticed that they are often demonized as a prelude to increasing their taxes and removing any benefits they might be entitled to, such as child benefit. Just remind me why …


          • degenerate antisemite says:

            Fuck you Peter you Hunt.


        • 101
          The Observer says:

          They are also so remarkably similar.
          Both are similar poles so they will only live with each other peaceably until one or the other changes polarity. Not in my lifetime.


          • t says:

            No they are not.
            Israelis have a free, open democracy that allows all people (Muslim, Hindu, Jew and all) to worship and speak as they please.
            Arabs have brutal, corrupt dictatorships that kill or persecute non-Muslims and follow 8th Century law.
            When Cairo has a Gay Pride Parade like Tel Aviv….. they’ll be the same.


      • 24
        Ian says:

        Yes – and are second-class citizens without the same rights as Jews


      • 46
        Hava Nagila says:

        And huge numbers of blacks were citizens of Apartheid-era South Africa. What, exactly, is your point?


        • 72
          The Piss Soaked Tramp Formally Known As TAT! says:

          So it’s only Apartheid when white people do it?

          Cause I wonder what the farmers who had their land stolen by Bobby Mugabe would have to say….


          • The Observer says:

            AND don’t forget the hundreds of Northern Transvaal farmers and their families murdered over the last 10 years – never mentioned by the BBC and other media.


      • 128
        Crikey says:

        He probably didn’t know that as he will just be a left wing tool staying mindlessly on message.


      • 162
        Steve says:

        And there are Israeli cabinet ministers who would have every Arab expelled. Did you really not know that?

        This is one Palestinian official. The current Israeli foreign minister is on record as saying he wouldn’t mind every Israeli Arab being “driven in to the sea”.


    • 4
      Sidney Harbour-Bridge says:

      No, Israel proclaims itself as a Jewish State, NOT a state free of Muslims.

      See the difference?


    • 5
      Anonytwat says:

      Yes because if you live in Israel you certainly aren’t allowed to be an Arab or non-Jew. You certainly aren’t allowed to worship at your mosque atop the Jewish faith’s holiest site or sit in their parliament. Oh lordy no…


    • 7

      According to Israel’s Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population of Israel in 2010 is estimated at 1,573,000, representing 20.4% of the population.


    • 8
      Rat's arse says:

      What a totally stupid comment anonymous.


    • 9
      Anonymous says:

      Don’t normally comment on those sort of comments, but Israel is a democracy with all citizens entitled to freedom of assembly and protest, voting, and equality…unlike most of it’s neighbours


      • 34
        Passing Wind says:

        True. Shame about the huge pile of chips on each of it’s shoulders.


      • 58
        Ed the Axeman says:

        Don’t normally comment on those sort of comments, but Israel is a democracy with all citizens entitled to freedom of assembly and protest, voting, and equality…unlike most of it’s neighbours


        If there is equality, why can’t arab Israelis freely bring in spouses, where as non arabs can?


      • 120
        Peter expat says:

        The trouble is that it is a badly flawed democracy. The balance of power is with extremists who effectively rule the roost, rather than the majority’s wishes, offering the best possible example of why PR is a very bad thing.


      • 129
        yeah, right.. says:

        ….and one which chooses to ignore UN resolutions regarding land it illegally occupies.

        If the west truly wonders why Iran feels it can thumb it’s nose at UN resolutions, it should look at the example set to it by it’s democratic neighbour.


    • 10
      Percy Longprong says:

      I think you will find there are Israeli arabs’


      • 76
        Eid says:

        Scuse me, but how many “Israeli Arabs” are basically “Israeli Arabs” because Israel decided to occupy their land?!?!?


        • 114
          Anonymous says:

          There has only ever been one Israeli Arab suicide bomber. It would seem most are reasonably happy living in Israel and why shouldn’t they be, it’s a democracy, unlike the bulk of there neighbors.


          • Eid says:

            erm, happy compared to the alternatives yes. If you asked those Arabs would they prefer to be an Arab living in a Jewish Israel dominated with right-wing anti-Islamic sentiment, or an Islamic State dominated with right-wing anti-Jewish sentiment I think I know what the answer would be.

            They try to stay, and rightly so. If the Arabs moved out then the land would be Jewish dominated and lost forever. It’s a formulaic invasion, and settlement building is part of that.


        • 165
          t says:

          Or bought the land?!?!?!?

          Unless you believe Muslims in Birmingham are occupying the city and wish to have them chucked out… as the Left is so eager to do with Jews in Israel.


    • 12
      George Bruce says:



      • 99
        Hush says:

        Israeli Arabs? Palestinian Israelis? Palestinians of 48? Fifth column? Social and political problem? Demographic timebomb?

        You guys let me know when we have an Arab/Palestinian with Israeli citizenship in the Knesset not getting abused and mistrusted for sole fact that they’re not Jewish.


    • 15
      Troll Supervisor says:

      Troll #1, please make your trolling less obvious. We don’t want the goyim to twig.


    • 67
      Ah! Monika says:

      Don’t misunderstand him. He means that Israel is so small they could only hold a 100 metre race


    • 81
      Anonymous says:

      I volunteered in the Israeli army along side Arab Christians, I was proud of that and they were proud to serve. Yes, Israel has problems with its minorities, but looking at the rise of the EDL and BNP lately, I think you can say no country has truly solved all its issues with its minority groups.
      By not even allowing the idea of Jews in the Palestinian state shows that peace with Jews is not the end game for the PLO. How is that acceptable?


    • 94
      Cynical Old Man says:

      Anonymous is a typical leftie – anti-semitic and ignorant of the reality of the ethnic maheup of Israeli citizens. If you can’t be bothered to learn about the states or people you slag off then you prove yourself to be an ignorant dogmatist and bigot!


      • 168
        Batshit insane fundamentalist loon says:

        Ha! Cynical is calling others ignorant and bigoted? Oh Lord. Oh Lordy Lord.
        If your land was occupied, what would YOU do? Why would it be in the interest of Israel to make concessions or peace? Suits them fine the way it is. Ben Gurion was a terrorist, but succeeded in the end, thereby allowing a favourable rewrite of the history books.


    • 108
      Anonymous says:

      20% of the population of Israel is Arab


    • 112
      Lord Lucan says:

      Ahh yes. Ze Juden are ze problem…


    • 125
      The voice of unreason says:

      The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.


    • 139
      Goystein says:

      Israel was founded on racist principles.


      • 163
        Goystein says:

        …and it remains a highly racist theocracy which uses the west to fight it’s battles via the Politicians and media it controls.


    • 167
      IslamoNazi Watcher says:

      So it’s alright for 50 Muslim states to be Judenrein but the Jews have no right to their own State?

      So it’s alright for the Arab countries to expel nearly 1 million Jews in 1949 but not for the Jews to protect themselves against violent extremists?

      So it’s OK to have Sharia in the UK and the rest of us Brits have to accept it too.

      F*ck off, racist.



  2. 2
    Billy Bowden is the greatest umpire ever ! says:

    Both need to treated under the law equalliy, If you took religon and politics out of this then it would be sorted in days.


  3. 6
    Billy Bowden is the greatest umpire ever ! says:

    As to the last state to have J*w free policy was that not Hard left Nazi Germany?


    • 29
      Splooge says:

      Hard left!!

      Now, now, Billy – your being a bit unfair to the Nazi party.

      All that Nazi/Fabian eugenics nonsense is hardly “hard left” – it’s all fairly mainstream stuff for the massed lefty cohorts


    • 53
      Passing Wind says:

      Ultra-extreme right and ultra-extreme left are one and the same thing.


      • 93
        can't bear to be tarrred with the brush says:

        Hmm. Whatever the N a z i s were, it was diametrically opposite to the “progressives” of today.


        • 151
          Archer Karcher says:

          Actually it wasn’t, the progressive movement started with Italy’s fascist movement and corporatism, the very same corporatism you see rampant all over the EU today.
          The Nazis imagined they had refined progressivism still further by adding a scientific element to national socialism, they described their brand of socialism as scientific socialism.
          The science they referred to? Darwinism and Eugenics.
          Some things, really do not change.


      • 97
        Larry of Araby says:

        And the mainstream left admire the tenets of both.


  4. 16
    Ol' Blue Eyes says:

    Not for the first time, it seems the Palestinian leadership doesn’t want this resolved!


    • 20
      AC1 says:

      They want the OPM of foriegn aid to keep coming. If they stopped pretending to be victims they’d have to stand on their own feet, and arabs hate work.


      • 40
        Ah! Monika says:

        If the situation was reversed you would find tomaoes and oranges for export grown in pots window boxes and high-rise farms. What do Ar ab countries export?


        • 54
          phantom flan flinger says:

          saudis do a good line in murderous religious fanatics apparently….


        • 75
          Anonymous says:

          Well, they do export a vast amount of effort into the non-musl*m world to achieve the demise of all other faiths.


        • 116
          The Observer says:

          Other than oil you mean?
          Well Syria exports tankerloads of very good Olive Oil to Italy which is then remixed and sold as Italian. It also has the best Pistachios, Cherries and Arabic dried fruits in the world but they do not reach our shores – local and regional consumption only. Also the best Lamb in the world which is why it is so expensive in Syria since the vast majority goes whole to Saudi Arabia.
          Egyptian potatoes anyone? Fruits, dates, carpets etc etc.
          As for ACI stating Arabs hate work, only shows his/her ignorance of Arabic countries and how hard most of them do work and network to simply exist.


          • John Bellingham says:

            Well observed, Observer. Are you aware that most of it is shipped to Cyprus where it is sorted and inspected and miraculously becomes EU produce?


  5. 18
    Mariquon says:

    Isnt Avigdor Lieberman (Israels FM) calling for the same with his Lieberman plan? Redrawing the borders to make both Israel & Palestine more homogenous?
    Again based on the same grounds as what the PAL ambassador said, to work on their own nationalism?
    Or is the Lieberman-plan salonfahig?


    • 37
      Strange but true says:

      What does homogenous mean? Didn’t they try that somewhere in Africa? What happened then.

      Also there needs to be an examination of the concept of “democracy” as applied in the middle east as a whole. It does not seem to meet our exacting standards of Lobbyists, Cash for questions and Cash for Peerages.

      Also a true democracy has an unelected head of state / church which is passed on through the male line – along as they are not catholic.


      • 61
        Marmite says:

        You have a fair point 32, but the people of this country could get rid of the Queen at any time, but choose not to.

        Of course, you will always get the miserable b@stards who whine about the Queen, and never acknowledge her tremendous contribution to the country, and then you have some catholics who like a good moan etc. Life’s a b@tch aint it?


      • 63

        Homogeneous is a Levantine Arab dip or spread made from cooked, mashed chickpeas, blended with tahini, olive oil, lemon juice, salt and garlic.

        Liberals love it.


    • 59
      Hava Nagila says:

      Hush. You’ll ruin the Israeli narrative.

      Keep up this inconvenient stream of facts and they’ll label you an anti-Semite.


      • 140
        Goystein says:

        Inconvenient historical facts like for example the J*ws declaring war on Germany in 1933. Yup, they declared it first!


  6. 22
    MrAngry61 says:

    As to the last state to have J*w free policy was that not Hard left Nazi Germany?

    Howabout Bangladesh, created 1947, ‘liberated’ 1971, population 98% muslim? Pakistan (b1947) is also younger than the Third Reich.


  7. 31
    Yasser says:

    Bring me my towel!

    The world will quake!


  8. 32
    Gordon Brown says:

    i think things could have worked out differently if my pencil had been sharper


  9. 35
    nell says:

    So the UN has paid our tone the bliar £millions to organise pe@ce in the middle e ast and this is the best he can do.


  10. 48
    Lord John Prescott says:

    I’ve got an idea… if we take all the people in the East of the country west and make Jerusalem an …. hang on..what was my idea again? … hang on……………………………………………………………………………….
    No…its gone.


    • 79
      Keith Vaz (Head Waiter at the Sizzling Punjab Curry House) says:

      Ahh Mr Prescott your Indian buffet for 12 is now ready, are your guests late or will you be eating the whole fucking lot on your own like last time?


  11. 49
    dr. sipp says:

    cant ever see palestine state having an airport

    there would be suicide flights into israel every week


  12. 71
    Hugh Jundys says:

    The Palestinians are nothing but a bunch of bigoted racists.

    Soames and Liley should be ashamed of themselves for supporting the sick trashy twats who want to exterminate any race or creed.


  13. 82
    Engineer says:

    One of the fundamental problems in all this is that Israel would be prepared to live in pe*ce with it’s Arab neighbours if an accord was reached, but large factions in the Arab states would still want to wipe Israel and all those practising that religion offthe face of the earth given half a chance.

    Until the Arabs accept that Israel is there and isn’t going to go away, there’s no solution.


    • 122
      Eyeless in Gaza says:

      What they need is a common enemy.
      USA is a likely target but they will not play ball.
      Any other takers?


  14. 83
    Selohesra says:

    Didn’t Edward de Bono come with idea based on marmite – you either love it or hate it. They would soon forget their previous differences and unite around their like or dislike for this new flavour. Unfortunately some are a bit argumentative out there so would soon be sending off rockets & suicide bombers to people with different tastes instead.


    • 86
      Ah! Monika says:

      They’ve taken most of the salt out of HP ans put it into Marmite.


    • 87
      Mustafa Jobbi says:

      I thought the mussies only ate Marmiite


    • 149
      John Bellingham says:

      de Bono’s observation was that middle eastern diets were deficient in Zinc due to their preference for flat breads. Lack of Zinc makes men irritable, belligerant and impairs cognitive functions–like memory and abstract thought. The yeast in Marmite would, in a trice, turn Jews and Arabs into something that resembled human beings. The plan to supply free Marmite to the whole region has been blocked by vested interests in the US Congress whose members beieve that a more suitable solution can be achieved with 200 F22 fighters and US$3 billion of other ordnance.


  15. 88
    Bardirect says:

    After stealing the hilltops, throwing their sewage down the hill, stealing the fresh and sea water (Dead Sea products – only from the eastern side of course), after the burning and uprooting of the olive groves does anyone seriously think these people would want to stay in Palestine after they lose the protection of the IDF?

    Trouble is, like all bad neighbours no one really wants them. Doesn’t sound like they would be welcomed back within Israel’s borders either.

    How can any Libertarian continue to support Israel’s tyranny over other people, however, unpleasant they may be. Or is it only those Libertarians who in the early 80’s supported South Africa and used to go around saying “hang Mandela?”


  16. 89
    Terrible But True says:

    Wow, this will be all around the MSM, especially the broadcast guys, debated, analysed and honestly expert reviewed, like wildfire.



  17. 90
    Stinkfinger says:

    The last state to proclaim such an idea?
    The Republic of Ireland?


  18. 91
    Glubb Pasha says:

    I always thought that traditionally the FCO was staffed by Arabists and that until 9/11 the UK was generally pro-Arab from an historic and sentimental prospective… surely it’s a no brainer..the UK supports a Palestinian State and land-swap policy…doesn’t it ? ..Er…what do you think ???


    • 130
      Peter expat says:

      I think historically you are correct about the FCO having many Arabists and being generally pro Arab.

      However, I suspect the FCO has gone seriously off the rails in recent years. Even if the damn fool yanks didn’t understand the folly of invading Iraq and screwing up the delicate balance between Sunnis and Shias there, the FCO certainly knew. After all we ruled the place for over 20 years after WWI, quite successfully, with little more than a squadron of Rolls Royce armoured cars and a few biplanes. Similarly with Afghanistan, where we had tried and failed for decades, despite the wiles of the Victorian political officers, all of which must be on record in the FCO.

      Why we attached ourselves to the yanks’ coat tails in either place defies all logic.


      • 135
        Since you ask says:

        WHY? Because Bliar abolished government by Cabinet and instead installed a small clique in No10 run by MoD placemen – who completely and deliberately ignored the advice they were getting from across the road to keep well out of it.


        • 153
          Glubb Pasha says:

          Bliar had already given agreement to Bush at Camp David that if the US decided to invade Iraq the UK would be with them…..everything else followed from that agreement…effectively the facts were made to fit the case not the other way around even if it meant misleading Parliament and the Britih public with hokum about 45 minutes and WMD etc

          As to Afghanistan…in 2006 the yanks were tied down in Iraq and it was politically difficult in the short term to sell the surge in US troops(in fact Bush had agreed to withdraw US troops after the successful compared to later action against the Taliban and Al-Q….”Mission Accomplished” hubris etc) in a fast deterioating Helmand to the American voter…step forward “Straightsortaguy” Tony…the whole action was sold to the British public as a minor police action in which British Tommies in berets would merely oversee the burning of the poppy crop and reduction of the heroin trade…they would in the words of John Reid “exit without a shot being fired” within 6 months….5 years later and after many brave British soldiers being maimed and killed, the much expending of our treasure we are in the fag-end of one of the most hardest and costly wars in our military history…with the likelihood of ultimately have mao difference whatsoever in the long term history/politics of the region


  19. 92
    Seth the pig farmer says:

    Briatin should offer to support a Palestinian State on condition it signs a joint constitutional treaty with Israel that binds both of them equally to plularity, democracy, freedom of sufferage etc.

    Would be fun to see if the real issue isn’t Israel at all.


  20. 103
    Jimmy says:

    “Can any historians out there remind us of the last state to proclaim such an idea?”

    Not sure. Was it Alabama?


  21. 106
    Anonymous says:

    I hate wading into anything involving Israel and Palestine as it smacks of tiresome squabbling children (with guns and high power explosives), but the actual comments of the ambassador were “After the experience of the last 44 years of military occupation and all the conflict and friction, I think it would be in the best interest of the two people to be separated”. Such comments don’t really bear the comparison which the USA Today article draws between the Palestinians and Nazi Germany. Pragmatism dictates that two peoples who have been engaged in a prolonged conflict based on territorial claims and religious differences are not going to easily live side-by-side.


  22. 124
    Eyeless in Gaza says:

    Also there are so few Greeks and Jews in Turkey compared to 20 years ago.
    Ho Hum.


  23. 137
    Vote Winner says:

    The percentages of religious affiliations were:

    * Christian: 72.0%
    * Muslim: 3%
    * Hindu: 1%
    * Sikh: 0.6%
    * Jewish: 0.5%
    * Buddhist: 0.3%
    * Any other religion: 0.3%


  24. 144
    Despair says:

    Both sides need to read the Sermon on the Mount. After 2000 years some things have not changed.


  25. 147
    goto100 says:

    …whereas most (if not all) of Avigdor Liberman’s comments regarding Palestinians and Arabs make supporting Israel without question a no-brainer?


  26. 160
    Anonymous says:

    Saudi Arabia?


  27. 161
    @TollPointBee says:

    Guido really is a big Spurs fan these days. He absolutely loves Israel. Wonder why that is then?


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