10% of Anglo Irish Bank’s Profits Came from Defrauding Customers
Guido has been given documents coming from inside Anglo Irish Bank’s Treasury Department dating back to 1997 which strongly suggest there was a board level approved conspiracy to over-charge corporate customers. The scale of the fraud was massive and it may have contributed up to 10% of the now nationalised bank’s profits.
The Anglo-Irish Bank’s fraud comes from overstating the DIBOR base rate on which customer’s loans were calculated. DIBOR is the Dublin Interbank Offered Rate, calculated and published daily like LIBOR, it was set in stone and used by all Irish banks as the basis for settlement of trades and financial transactions before they joined the Euro.
Essentially Anglo-Irish lied to customers as to what that the real base rate was by adding between 1/4% to 1/3% to the official underlying rate, then they added the usual banker’s spread that they will have agreed contractually with their corporate customers.
Guido’s source says that inside Anglo-Irish the false rate quoted to borrowers was known internally as “TIBOR” after Tiarnan O’Mahoney, the Director and Chief Operating Officer to whom Des Whyte, the treasury manager who prepared the figures, reported. Sources say that the “TIBOR” version of “DIBOR” was not used with sophisticated money market customers who would have queried the rate.
Guido has done some back of an envelope calculations based on the bank’s 1999 Annual Report. The customer loan book is reported to have been €5.7 billion (IR£4.4 billion). Assuming that only half the clients were over-charged the average of 30 basis points the bank will have made an extra €8.6 million, (IR£6.6 million) on the bottom line. That was some 10% of the bank’s reported profits.
According to a source the fiddle continued throughout the late 90s into the early half of the next decade as Anglo-Irish’s loan book grew on the back of the Celtic tiger. Customers could have been ripped off by as much €100 million.
N.B. Guido has documentation to back up this story – if the Dublin authorities want it…
UPDATE : There was an error with the graphic illustration above earlier which has now been corrected to show the correct corresponding date.
You’ve got the Euro-IR£ calculations wrong. The Punt was more valuable than the euro, €1 = £0.787564.
Thanks corrected.
Whale oil beef hooked!
Guido, It may pay to sniff around the British banks?
Ampers.
INTERESTing!
Nothing would surprise at this stage with Anglo.
Does it leave the State now open to having to compensate the overcharged customers ?
Thats not the half of it with Anglo-Irish bank Mr Fawkes. So far 24billion euros of public money has been sunk into that financial pit as it was covered unnecessarily by the Irish Government’s bank guarantee.
The official banking Inquiry announced by the Government has in its terms of reference a limit on the dates the Inquiry can research for its report with the night of the decision to guarantee Anglo along with other banks excluded.
No memos or other paperwork appears to exist around the decision by Irish Finance Minister Brian Lenihan’s decision to guarantee the bank with public money.
There is more, much more than the TIBOR rate underneath the wrapping on that particularly well-connected bank.
One of the worst things about the Credit Bubble regulated into existence was the frauds it allowed to be hidden both state and private.
Caveat Emptor?
Surely a customer is concerned with the price he pays retail, not the wholesale price the seller buys at?
“Fiat justitia ruat caelum” ????
Pecunia non olet.
Infamy! Infamy!
Rusty Fiat – can’t sell ‘em?
Drive a fiat and suffer the ozone layer to fall…
Business lending is usually calculated at a certain percentage over the bank base rate.
What a pack of corrupt greedy bastards.
Arrests all round I think. Will the British be seeking an extradition warrant?
Massive trousering all round. Guinness all round.
Treble B ratings all round.
Guinness! Mmmm, now there’s an idea for Friday night!
“Despite Gordon’s whining to the EU it is now the case that Irish banks now represent the safest place to deposit money in Europe, with a AAA guarantee from a country with the lowest national debt to GDP ratio of any AAA country.”
G Fawkes 2008
the state is still guaranteeing the finds held on deposit at Anglo Irish as well as the various bond holders.
The Irish state may collapse but Anglo will survive!!
Are you saying that the bank was effectively ripping off the developers who may have known how to secure planning permission but wouldn’t know their way around a spreadsheet with the aid of a map?
So you’re saying the Irish are dishonest? You will be saying the Jocks are drunken druggies and the Welsh miserable moping bastards next.
The muzzies are mental and suicidal. Never hear that mentioned in the press.
They can fuck off.
…and that the English rule the world….
Jesus fucking Christ. ^^^^^^^
and that the English are fuckin* halfwits who manage to put the most dishonest of them into parliament
As an Englishman I would really like to argue with that, but sadly cannot see any fault with your logic.
Gotta concede that point – fair enough
Mention the ‘E’ word and they all start jumping up and down……hahahahahaha
On my mortgage, I actually checked the rates, to make sure I understood how and why they were changing, (and compared them to the BORing rates). But my bank manager didn’t. Clueless.
You’d hope the corporate customers could do sums.
Smaller corporate customers often have no choice but to suffer whatever abuse their bank gives them.
yes…
I’m no great expert, but I thought you asked around and went for the best deal on offer.
Better than the situation for small businesses in france. (as stated by Rachida Dati)
Sadly these crimes will not result in jail-time for any of these grubby little cheats as the current govt. in Ireland is essentially a kleptocracy
If you have a source in Anglo, the real gunpowder is a list of the deposit-holders on September 29 2008. Second to that is a list of the borrowers on that date. If you can get that, you could cause revolution.
Roman Abromavich is the biggest bondholder
Run on whitewash shares forcast in Ireland as supplies deminish.
Looks like there IS legal abortion in Ireland after all Guido!
This post just got a mention by Moncreiff on Newstalk, but he wouldn’t say what your accusation was against Anglo (for libel-fearing reasons presumably).
Nice investigative work, will look forward to the media confirming it – this cannot go unnoticed
Keep up the great work!
Damien
Guido. It may be that sources outside of Ireland are our only hope of lifting the lid on the criminals deep within our Government. So please, any other information you have on Anglo Irish Bank or connected information would be much appreciated.
Our national media is bought off by our shower of bastard politicians so we need outside help to expose them.
It really IS that bad.
How ironic
Don’t go walking in the woods alone!
Errr… wasn’t this reported in essence last Sunday in the Sunday Tribune?
Arrests? Are you kidding me… where do you think you live, Guido?
Yes it was. Link Below
http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/oct/10/regulator-to-take-legal-action-against-overchargin/?q=anglo irish
RTE were suspiciously quiet (as expected). No follow up in the Indo? (as expected).
Spill it all Guido.
It seems to be referring to a different, additional alleged scam:
http://tinyurl.com/39vmz9d
In fairness, the Trib story said banks (naming only AIB/BOI “and others…”) were ripping people off.
This story includes names, the methods used and indicates a profit level. The specificity separates it from the Tribune story, which could have been an overcalculation of account fees, as opposed to the deliberate overcharging of an agreed and set rate.
“Fiddling in the ‘Free State” – who would have thunk it!
Anglo appear to have referred to this back in August 31 when they announced they were carrying an investigation into overcharging at the bank. Here’s an extract from their statement…
‘In February 2010 the Bank received a query from a corporate borrower in relation to historic interest charges on a loan.
The review has thus far indicated that, prior to July 2004, a significant number of similar instances of this issue occurred where the interest rates applying to certain loans were not in accordance with the customer loan documentation. The review has determined that this practice ceased in 2004. ‘
The issue was also referred to in the national media at the time…
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/customers-overcharged-by-up-to-euro100m-admits-aynsley-2334622.html
Presumably this is the same issue – although the extra detail is very welcome!
That was the smoking Gun. Guido has the bullet.
Nice one Guido!
I wonder if any other banks have been teeving like this
God never intended the Irish to have banks.
Or Parliaments.
Interesting news Guido. Typical that we have to get our news from outside Ireland. Don’t be expecting our authorities to be knocking on your door anytime soon unless they want the papers burned.
Any chance you’d be brave enough to report the identity of the sitting politician who was one of the Anglo-Irish golden circle?
Corruption? In the Irish Republic? I cannot believe it! The Irish have always been paragons of propriety and rectitude!!!!111!!oneoneone!!
Interesting news Guido. Typical that we have to get our news from outside Ireland. Don’t be expecting our authorities to be knocking on your door anytime soon unless they want the papers burned.
Any chance you’d be brave enough to report the identity of the sitting politician who was one of the Anglo-Irish golden circle?
Well, it seems universal. Nowhere bad though as in the states. Not only the banks, but the utility companies cheat consumers as well. We discovered we were paying for two long-distance telephone services for more than four years! It was hidden under a title that itself was buried within a lot of “legalese.” The sad thing is that the regulators cannot help us recover the losses. Another thing we have noticed is that third parties who get a hold of our mobile phone numbers are able to invent charges and bill us for it. We were charged for a toll-free calling services we didn’t order. We questioned that and it took six months to get a refund. Two months later we were charged for an answering service we also did not order . . . and on it goes. Do you see that happening in Ireland? (I hoped to move back there but perhaps not!).
It is not a scoop as noted above, link repreat for the hard of reading
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/customers-overcharged-by-up-to-euro100m-admits-aynsley-2334622.html
o/t but hats off to Damian Green.
The four-year-old ban on sending 10000 failed asylum seekers back to Zimbabwe is to be lifted, Britain’s Immigration Minister, Damian Green, has announced.
It’s a start.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/britain-to-remove-ban-on-deporting-refugees-to-harare-20101015-16nnq.html
Believe it when the 10,000 have returned to Zimbabwe.
The HRA Articles 2 -17 inclusive…any human rights lawyer worth his/her salt will find plenty of reasons therein to stop deportation irrespective of what Mr Green has to say about lifting the ban
Ker-chinggg!
It’s Articles 3 and 8 that matter for these purposes
Start with that GAMU bitch from X Factor.
No doubt they will include the delightfully named Stalin Mau Mau amongst the deportees…..Though on reflection probably not as he no doubt has a British passport now. As noted above I wouldn’t hold your breath on this. Once the ambulance chasing shysters have obtained Judicial Reviews (at public expense of course) hardly any of these deadbeats will be deported.
Insofar as Zimbabwe was the old “Southern Rhodesia” and part of our Commonwealth and the UK washed its hands of that country’s internal problems you could make a case that these people do at least have a connection to the UK and it could be argued that we have a moral obligation to them for allowing the situation in Zimbabwe to take place without lifting a finger whilst quite happily invading Iraq to rid it of a tyrant
Let’s face it we quite happily take in people who have no affinity to the UK,hate our guts;provide them with free legal aid and provide the means for them to sue us under the said HRA
Believe it when I see it, to be honest.
It’s Friday, so a bit of Frankie Boyle humour:
“When I read the headline that “Fannie Mae collapse” I thought Kerry Katona was pregnant again”
“Nature: the answer is “Sparrows, Otters and Hedgehogs” – what is the question?”
“What is the top selling porn mag in Norfolk?”
“As a child, what did I dress in military uniforms to re-inact the battle of Stalingrad, the German forces being played by a lawn mower?”
“What are waiting patiently in a queue to get into Richard Gere’s a**e?”
“What’s on the menu at a gypsy wedding?”
sure ’tis all just a bit ‘o craic…..
tosser
Not sure what your “evidence” is supposed to prove as the Bloomberg printout is for 7th August but the screen of Anglo prices is 7th October?!
However, for the record :
7th October DIBOR 3 month was 6.22%
I am not sure what “RAC” is but it is probably the fixed spread to create an equivalent of a base rate for them?
BUT…..If this printout is showing rates calculated in arrears, which it could well be then what the Anglo sheet is showing is the rate over the last 3 months that was determined 3 months ago ie. these loans began on 7th July and ended on 7th October. On 7th August the rate was 6.25%. Add on the 25bp and you get to 6.5%. Effectively it is a closing statement.
If that is the case then your “cooked” figures for the 8th October probably show 6.56%. 9th October 6.51%?
Graphic now corrected – RAC is the Reserve Asset Charge – which is suspiciously high at 25bps.
25bp isn’t a high margin by any stretch of the imagination….. it is one quarter of one per cent. Bearing in mind that “DIBOR” actually stands for “Dublin Inter Bank Offered Rate”, that is the rate at which theoretically Anglo could raise money itself. Adding on a quarter of a percent is nothing. If anything it is low, bearing in mind the risk that they were taking lending to some dubious Irish companies.
Along a similar line, all banks do this. For example, if you have a “Base Rate Tracker” mortgage, it often tracks the Barclays Bank Base Rate which DOES NOT have to equal the BoE Base Rate.
I am happy to have a quick look at the data and see if I can work out where their figures come from but at the moment I am convinced that you are making a mountain out of a molehill. It all comes down to what they agreed with customers on the definition.
On closer inspection, I think what was happening was this :
1. Anglo-Irish was using the rate at which they got offered cash in the market
2. This rate is based on 1/16ths ie. it is always rounded up for the offered side and down for the bid side with rounding to the nearest 0.0625.
3. That rate may not tie in with the DIBOR screenshots that you have been given but may tie in with observed trading rates on the day.
In the grand scheme of just how corrupt the whole “Setting of LIBOR” thing has been for 20 years, you have completely missed the big story….
I don’t think the RAC is the margin – I think it’s the equivalent of the UK’s MLA.
25bps would be high in the UK though.
I have no idea what an “MLA” is but the only other reference that comes up on Google for Reserve Assets Charge [in relation to another Irish lender] in that it is a margin on top of DIBOR, backing up my thoughts.
Anglo-Irish Bank was not a UK bank and always paid a bigger spread than their mainland opposition. I used to actually trade their short term debt at the time of this non-scandal and they generally paid somewhere between LIBOR +5bp and LIBOR+50bp themselves to borrow money, so all that they were doing was passing on their own cost-of borrowing.
I’d be interested to see more of the figures over a period of time if Guido cares to share? I have always been a detractor of Anglo and their business model but I would rather that they were brought to book for actual fraud rather than things like this where fingers are pointed but the evidence doesn’t stand up to inspection. Every claim like this diverts attention away from chasing down the real issues.
Serves the customers right for doing buiness with an Irish bank. What did they expect?
Should have gone to Iceland
An Icelandic Bank?
Nothing like a financial scandal to bring racist assholes out of the woodwork.
Any old excuse lads? You should be as ashamed of yourselves as we Irish are of our greedy financial elite.
When did Paddies become a separate race, knobhead? Get your head out your arse and grow a sense of humour.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/probe-into-possible-euro50m-overcharging-2319458.html
From the Irish Independent Sept 1.
Whats for dinner ma
Culture is roughly anything we do and the monkeys don’t
I’m stealing that one. Sue me……….
Irish stew in the name of the law
Ba-doom….tish
If you don’t like it then you know where the big red X button on your browser is.
Oooh. Hear you.
I’m famished anyone got any spuds I can eat?
could you go a pastie supper, Bobby Sands?
Try the local take away 808080
Gordon’s new book
Tags Customers Associate with This Product ;
Beyond the Crash: Overcoming the First Crisis of Globalisation
scroll down for a laugh
So he has been fizzing with ideas, beyond the crash? I take it Gordon will swear he was in the passenger seat when the accident happened.
Is there nothing happening in this country that we can rant about, you know, a country that actually fucking matters on this planet.
You mean EU region, surely?
When Bobby Sands Was On Hunger Strike
In The Maze Prison Every Time They Screw
Open The Door This Is What They Say To Him.
Would you like to try a cheeseburger Bobby Sands?
Would you like to try a cheeseburger Bobby Sands?
Would you like to try a cheeseburger,
You dirty melly fenian, rebel loving fucker?
Would you like to try a cheeseburger Bobby Sands?
Well your ma was up this morning and she says she got your brew,
Well your ma was up this morning and she says she got your brew,
Well your ma was up this morning and she says she got your brew,
But sure your brew would be no good to you,
Theres a bed made, in Milltown just for you.
Well I’m going for my dinner now Bobby Sands,(And Your Not Gettin None)
Well I’m going for my dinner now Bobby Sands,(And Your Not Gettin None)
Well I’m going for my dinner now,
Would you like me to bring you back a doggy bag?
Theres a bed made in Milltown just for you.
Well the smell of your cell would knock you fucking out,(Bobby Sands)
Well the smell of your cell would knock you fucking out,(Bobby Sands)
Well the smell of your cell would knock you fucking out,
I’ve a good mind to go in there and beat you about,
There’s a bed made in Milltown just for you.
Would you like to try a wee Cool tin of Coke With Some Ice (Bobby Sands) ?
Would you like to try a wee Cool tin of Coke With Some Ice (Bobby Sands)?
Would you like to try a tin of Coke?
Well your not fucking getting none, I hope you choke,
There’s a bed made in Milltown just for you.
That’s mainly because the screws were c**ts as far I remember.
wanker
One Friday night, wee Paddy O’reilly was in his favourite pub, sitting in his favourite seat, drinking his favourite whiskey, he’d had quite a few already tonight and was feeling especially drunk. As he was about to go to the bar for another whickey he fell flat on his face so Paddy said to himself “Think I’ve had enough tonight”. So Paddy crawled outside the pub and tried again to stand up but once again he fell flat on his face, knowing he’s definitely had too much he proceeded to crawl around the corner to his bungalow, crawled into his bedroom and tried to stand up to get into bed but he fell on the bed and was out like a light.
The next morning his lovely wife came into the room screaming and ranting, “You were out on the piss again last night Paddy, weren’t you?”
Paddy: “No, no how’d you know that”
Wife: The pub phoned, you left your wheelchair there again
We’re all in this together
Unless you went to Eton or “fagged for me” of course
The battle cry which was invented during a Bildeberg meeting.
“Guido has documentation to back up this story – if the Dublin authorities want it…”
With regret, they won’t.
Guido – they want it so that they can destroy it.
Because that is what regulatin is about in Ireland. Destroying anybody or anything that tells the rest of the world, or even worse, that tells the Irish taxpayers, what is really going on.
Time for another round of golf…..
Great work, Guido.
Let us not forget also the other victims of capitalism expansion/imperialism:
The Truth is Out: British Army Being Used as Capitalists’ Mercenaries to Secure Profit: http://eotp.org/2009/12/19/the-truth-is-out-british-army-being-used-as-capitalists-mercinaries-to-secure-profit/
Well I have a cure for those who are ” Angry at Anglo ” or ” Nauseous about NAMA ” have a look at http://www.namatastic.com
Comment 34 has it in a nutshell
I too have experienced Ireland, it is without doubt the most corrupt, bent, right wing banana republic in Europe.
Two main parties in Ireland are Moderate Right Wing , and Bonkers Right Wing. Not surprised at all.
Very true. And that’s coming from an Irishman.
Yep. Was there and had the same observation. Not one will do time for fraud or corruption though. Why Bertie isn’t behind bars is beyond me.
Now…..errr….if I was interested in digging up some serious provable shit on AIB I would start sniffing round the Irish Glass and Bottle site in Ringsend, the relationship with the investor group, the various consultants, the developer, Dublin Docklands Development Agency, and the subsequent shite fraud investigation. So incestuous they should all have 6 fingers on each hand! €400M tab picked up by the Oirish public on that one alone and the bastards are laughing all the way to the bank. Just saying..
the irish banks were infamous for quoting the wrong swap rates when they were funding PFI deals, adding a mysterious 15 bps for no reason
nothing will happen
true
Patrick walks into a bar in Dublin, Orders three pints of Guinness & sits in the corner of the room,
Drinking a sip out of each pint in turn. When he had finished all three, He went back to the bar & ordered three more.
The barman says,”You know a pint goes flat soon after I pull it
………………………… Your pint would taste better if you bought one at a time.”
Patrick replies, “Well now, I have two brodders, one is in America ; & de odder in Australia ; & here I am in Dublin .
When we all left home, we promised dat we’d drink dis way to remember de days we all drank togedder.”
The barman admits that this is a nice custom & says no more.
Patrick becomes a regular customer, & always drinks the same way ……. Ordering three pints & drinking a sip out of each in turn, until they are finished.
One day, he comes in & orders just two pints.
All the other regulars in the bar notice & fall silent.
When he goes back to the bar for the second round,
The barman says, “I don’t want to intrude on your grief but I wanted to offer my condolences on your great loss.”
Patrick looks confused for a moment, then the penny drops & he starts to laugh, “Oh no,” he says, “Bejesus, everyone is fine!
Tis me
……………. I’ve Quit Drinking!”
Guido, the “Dublin authorities” don’t want your documents, they were probably colluding in it. Aren’t you meant to be on The Independent scaring John Rentoul?
Ireland: set up a lengthy costly tribunal to investigate these claims. Drag it on and on. Eventually release a report that blames it on culture at the time. Blah blah blah.
US or UK: call the cops, court of law, prison. End of story.
Political bloggers are to stage two eight-hour strikes in the row over new contracts, it was announced today.
Members of the Political Bloggers Union will walk out from 10am on October 23 and November 1 after voting by 79% in favour of a campaign of strikes
Not surprised. This sort of thing is why I left the game. There were good profits to be made honestly. I made some of the best in the 80s and early 90s. The greed took over and swept all before it.
If you want to get you bank interest checked give me a shout.
Very interesting. Things were clearly unusual on that date – the AIB yield curve is inverted – but making up your own values for “DIBOR” fixings is pure and simple fraud.
Does your source have any ideas who has deposits in the Anglo branch in the Isle of Man ?
The IoM has a history of being used by prominent tax dodgers in Ireland to store their money. Many of them are rumoured to be donors of funds to Ireland’s three largest political parties.
If these were revealed, then this would incriminate the entire political establsihment. It is the type of information that would have been very useful in the run-up to last years Lisbon Referendum.
I heard it mentioned briefly but it was quickly smothered up.
Gudio,
re both your Anglo articles, it is very important to be able to verify 1. List of foreign bondholders, 2. documents dating back to 2007
I could not find a way to contact you per email or telephone, to have a conversation about the authenticity and how we eventually could put some meat to the bone.
Can you advise me how I can get in contact with you?
Georg R. Baumann
Skype: OceanViewStudio
P.S. I am in contact with well known economists in Ireland on a regular basis such as Dr. Constantin Gurdgiev and many others, there is a way to get this information into the Irish public, and I intend to help as best as I can, hence the authenticity verification is of high importance to avoid this to be dismissed as propaganda falsification.
Best
Georg
George
This is not too hard to do. Just get a set of Anglo Bank Statements prior to 2004 together with the facility letter and you can cross reference the rates.
Finally exposing them for the thieves they are. But Anglo were not the only Bank at this game!!!!!!!! Ulster Bank hang your heads in shame. AIB, Disgraceful, INBS, shambolic
Man bites dog — is newsworthy; Anglo Irish shady activities is just “dog bites man”.
Proof that Anglo or any Irish bank for that matter was not involved in shady activities — now that would be a real “Ripley’s believe it or not” story.
The Irish banks have been systematically defrauding customers and the Irish government certainly since the late 1980s and maybe even earlier. ( AIB foreign exchange, off shore accounts it just goes on and on