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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;You Can&#8217;t Have Politicians Stepping Into the Scientific Arena&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://order-order.com/2009/11/02/you-cant-have-politicians-stepping-into-the-scientific-arena/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://order-order.com/2009/11/02/you-cant-have-politicians-stepping-into-the-scientific-arena/</link>
	<description>Parliamentary plots, rumours and conspiracy</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:52:20 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/11/02/you-cant-have-politicians-stepping-into-the-scientific-arena/#comment-334284</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 12:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://order-order.com/?p=13038#comment-334284</guid>
		<description>Its obvious the Labour gov. is on something probably originating in Afghanistan if one considers how they hide info on immigration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its obvious the Labour gov. is on something probably originating in Afghanistan if one considers how they hide info on immigration.</p>
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		<title>By: thick as thieves</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/11/02/you-cant-have-politicians-stepping-into-the-scientific-arena/#comment-334086</link>
		<dc:creator>thick as thieves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://order-order.com/?p=13038#comment-334086</guid>
		<description>you will not make such false accusations against top boy unchallenged.
thick as thieves is a hero and heroes do not take drugs.
I will collect a pound of flesh from you as settlement.  
you are on the list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you will not make such false accusations against top boy unchallenged.<br />
thick as thieves is a hero and heroes do not take drugs.<br />
I will collect a pound of flesh from you as settlement.<br />
you are on the list.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: thick as thieves</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/11/02/you-cant-have-politicians-stepping-into-the-scientific-arena/#comment-334083</link>
		<dc:creator>thick as thieves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://order-order.com/?p=13038#comment-334083</guid>
		<description>said the spastic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>said the spastic.</p>
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		<title>By: ButcombeMan</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/11/02/you-cant-have-politicians-stepping-into-the-scientific-arena/#comment-333032</link>
		<dc:creator>ButcombeMan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://order-order.com/?p=13038#comment-333032</guid>
		<description>seen elsewhere:-

Professor Nutt has, dishonestly in my view, misrepresented the debate 
about cannabis as a black or white view, in order to justify his 
position. It is in fact shades of grey. Nutt has been proselytising 
about drugs, an action that is incompatible with his former role.

The decision about cannabis was about putting cannabis back where it 
historically was, before David Blunkett downgraded it. The 
classification had become totemic for people on both sides of the 
cannabis debate. 

Personally I think classification, as advice to users (as against 
priority advice to law enforcement and the courts) is heavily overdone. 
I prefer a system in which drugs are either legal or illegal but that is 
not where we are.

I attended the ACMD open hearing on cannabis, Professor Nutt does not 
represent honestly to the public, the range of debate. The National 
Director Of Mental Health Professor Louis Appleby was one of those who 
clearly wanted cannabis put back to B, there are many other such 
scientists. 

Professor Murray -the expert on psychosis, said on BBC World at 1, that 
Nutt played &quot;fast &amp; loose&quot; with the statistics. Well exactly. 

At the ACMD there was an attempt to rig some of what was said, the 
importation of arch-legaliser, Professor Simon Lenton from Australia, to 
speak to the public and the ACMD. I spoke to Lenton afterwards, he wants 
changes to the UN conventions. I also established that Lenton&#039;s visit to 
the UK was (quite remarkably) paid for by the UK tax payer-someone fixed 
that! I have my suspicions as to who that was.

Now what of the ACMD itself? Professor Nutt was almost stunned when the 
fact that the ACMD was not unanimous on the issue was put to him on BBC 
News 24, not a position that he had been telling the public. If the ACMD 
was not unanimous and many other academics were seeing the case 
differently, what was the Government to do? It HAD to err on the side of 
caution so it was right to reclassify. 

Government is very aware of the damage being done to the UK population 
by drugs use and particularly cannabis-remember Blair&#039;s feral youth? 
Kids who use cannabis on the way to school, at school and on the way 
home become unteachable, they become unable to plan or look far beyond 
the next joint, that is, even if they do not succumb to diagnosable 
mental illness.

What of Professor Nutt&#039;s own position? Well he justifies himself by 
saying the scientists were all agreed, but they only represent a small 
portion of the over 30 voices on the ACMD. The GP representative who 
sees drugs problems on the front line, has spoken out and says she does 
not support Nutt. Nutt himself was not even Chairman when the cannabis 
review was done, it was Sir Michael Rawlins, so Nutt&#039;s own vote carried 
no more weight than that of any other member. He is not even himself an 
expert on the effects of cannabis OR of Ecstasy. Why are we to believe 
in his omnipotence on this issue?

Nutt has ignored, in his public utterances since being dismissed, the 
important change in the nature of cannabis (of which the Home Office 
must be aware). Home grown cannabis is now dominating the market, this 
contains less or no CBD, a chemical that we heard at the ACMD may be an 
anti-psychotic and may, when present in roughly equal proportions with 
THC, defend against brain damage. I argue that not only (to quote 
Murray) is Nutt playing fast &amp; loose with the statistics, he is playing 
fast &amp; loose with the science. He has personally tinkered with the idea 
of legalisation in a Radio Broadcast in New Zealand-(it can be found 
using Google) which I brought to public and Home Office attention. 
Yesterday he admitted to drug use himself (in the Telegraph interview). 
It seems that the Professor is one of a generation who justify 
liberalisation because of his or their own, earlier folly.

Language matters in the drugs debate because there is a new generation 
of potential drugs users along every year. They make their decisions to 
use /any/ drug for the first time against the backdrop of culture and 
comment. 

Professor Nutt by his many unwise statements has been affecting that 
culture and even revelling in the notoriety. Alan Johnson was right to 
relieve him of his position. Of course the Home Office had lost 
confidence in him and because the Professor cannot shut up we will all 
see his real colours in coming months.

The circling of scientific wagons against what is perceived as an 
external enemy is sadly misjudged, mostly by people who have no idea of 
the detailed science themselves.

Scientists are not always right, judgements about drugs are not JUST a 
matter of science, relationships between various drugs and the possible 
harms are not susceptible to the spurious accuracy that Nutt claims. His 
Brave New World (subscribed to by a few other fellow scientific 
travellers who cannot get their own way) where scientists decide 
everything, independent of government and no one else has a valid 
opinion, is a sort of madness. The emperor has no clothes.


David Raynes

Post scriptum
How correct was my analogy with Brave New World?
Nutt (in the Telegraph) advocates inventing some sort of replacement for 
alcohol.
I wonder if he has thought of a name for it?
Shal we call it SOMA?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>seen elsewhere:-</p>
<p>Professor Nutt has, dishonestly in my view, misrepresented the debate<br />
about cannabis as a black or white view, in order to justify his<br />
position. It is in fact shades of grey. Nutt has been proselytising<br />
about drugs, an action that is incompatible with his former role.</p>
<p>The decision about cannabis was about putting cannabis back where it<br />
historically was, before David Blunkett downgraded it. The<br />
classification had become totemic for people on both sides of the<br />
cannabis debate. </p>
<p>Personally I think classification, as advice to users (as against<br />
priority advice to law enforcement and the courts) is heavily overdone.<br />
I prefer a system in which drugs are either legal or illegal but that is<br />
not where we are.</p>
<p>I attended the ACMD open hearing on cannabis, Professor Nutt does not<br />
represent honestly to the public, the range of debate. The National<br />
Director Of Mental Health Professor Louis Appleby was one of those who<br />
clearly wanted cannabis put back to B, there are many other such<br />
scientists. </p>
<p>Professor Murray -the expert on psychosis, said on BBC World at 1, that<br />
Nutt played &#8220;fast &amp; loose&#8221; with the statistics. Well exactly. </p>
<p>At the ACMD there was an attempt to rig some of what was said, the<br />
importation of arch-legaliser, Professor Simon Lenton from Australia, to<br />
speak to the public and the ACMD. I spoke to Lenton afterwards, he wants<br />
changes to the UN conventions. I also established that Lenton&#8217;s visit to<br />
the UK was (quite remarkably) paid for by the UK tax payer-someone fixed<br />
that! I have my suspicions as to who that was.</p>
<p>Now what of the ACMD itself? Professor Nutt was almost stunned when the<br />
fact that the ACMD was not unanimous on the issue was put to him on BBC<br />
News 24, not a position that he had been telling the public. If the ACMD<br />
was not unanimous and many other academics were seeing the case<br />
differently, what was the Government to do? It HAD to err on the side of<br />
caution so it was right to reclassify. </p>
<p>Government is very aware of the damage being done to the UK population<br />
by drugs use and particularly cannabis-remember Blair&#8217;s feral youth?<br />
Kids who use cannabis on the way to school, at school and on the way<br />
home become unteachable, they become unable to plan or look far beyond<br />
the next joint, that is, even if they do not succumb to diagnosable<br />
mental illness.</p>
<p>What of Professor Nutt&#8217;s own position? Well he justifies himself by<br />
saying the scientists were all agreed, but they only represent a small<br />
portion of the over 30 voices on the ACMD. The GP representative who<br />
sees drugs problems on the front line, has spoken out and says she does<br />
not support Nutt. Nutt himself was not even Chairman when the cannabis<br />
review was done, it was Sir Michael Rawlins, so Nutt&#8217;s own vote carried<br />
no more weight than that of any other member. He is not even himself an<br />
expert on the effects of cannabis OR of Ecstasy. Why are we to believe<br />
in his omnipotence on this issue?</p>
<p>Nutt has ignored, in his public utterances since being dismissed, the<br />
important change in the nature of cannabis (of which the Home Office<br />
must be aware). Home grown cannabis is now dominating the market, this<br />
contains less or no CBD, a chemical that we heard at the ACMD may be an<br />
anti-psychotic and may, when present in roughly equal proportions with<br />
THC, defend against brain damage. I argue that not only (to quote<br />
Murray) is Nutt playing fast &amp; loose with the statistics, he is playing<br />
fast &amp; loose with the science. He has personally tinkered with the idea<br />
of legalisation in a Radio Broadcast in New Zealand-(it can be found<br />
using Google) which I brought to public and Home Office attention.<br />
Yesterday he admitted to drug use himself (in the Telegraph interview).<br />
It seems that the Professor is one of a generation who justify<br />
liberalisation because of his or their own, earlier folly.</p>
<p>Language matters in the drugs debate because there is a new generation<br />
of potential drugs users along every year. They make their decisions to<br />
use /any/ drug for the first time against the backdrop of culture and<br />
comment. </p>
<p>Professor Nutt by his many unwise statements has been affecting that<br />
culture and even revelling in the notoriety. Alan Johnson was right to<br />
relieve him of his position. Of course the Home Office had lost<br />
confidence in him and because the Professor cannot shut up we will all<br />
see his real colours in coming months.</p>
<p>The circling of scientific wagons against what is perceived as an<br />
external enemy is sadly misjudged, mostly by people who have no idea of<br />
the detailed science themselves.</p>
<p>Scientists are not always right, judgements about drugs are not JUST a<br />
matter of science, relationships between various drugs and the possible<br />
harms are not susceptible to the spurious accuracy that Nutt claims. His<br />
Brave New World (subscribed to by a few other fellow scientific<br />
travellers who cannot get their own way) where scientists decide<br />
everything, independent of government and no one else has a valid<br />
opinion, is a sort of madness. The emperor has no clothes.</p>
<p>David Raynes</p>
<p>Post scriptum<br />
How correct was my analogy with Brave New World?<br />
Nutt (in the Telegraph) advocates inventing some sort of replacement for<br />
alcohol.<br />
I wonder if he has thought of a name for it?<br />
Shal we call it SOMA?</p>
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		<title>By: dm</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/11/02/you-cant-have-politicians-stepping-into-the-scientific-arena/#comment-330010</link>
		<dc:creator>dm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://order-order.com/?p=13038#comment-330010</guid>
		<description>fuck off you fucking twat! suggesting that cannabis users are in any way like paedophiles proves that its you that is the sneaky devious little shit trying to use sneaky devious and extreme arguments to try to illustrate your misguided opinion. what fucking planet do you live on where you think that not having a problem with smoking a spliff and trying to justify this to others who want to lock you up for it is akin to raping a child and trying to justify this to others who want to lock you up for it, Answer this for me, would you rather be tied up and gang fucked until you cant sit down or have someone pass you a spliff?

 no sorry i take that back giving you anything other than the gang fucking you obviously deserve would be a waste of time and cannabis, you fuckwit!

oh im not sure if your name is supposed to be ironic but just in case its not, do you realise that the modern use of the phrase chillout is related to coming down off drugs! and anything advertised or sold as &quot;for chilling out&quot; refers to this and is trying to exploit that drug culture you obviously think is as low as paedophilia and this means you are also exploiting it by choosing you screen name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fuck off you fucking twat! suggesting that cannabis users are in any way like paedophiles proves that its you that is the sneaky devious little shit trying to use sneaky devious and extreme arguments to try to illustrate your misguided opinion. what fucking planet do you live on where you think that not having a problem with smoking a spliff and trying to justify this to others who want to lock you up for it is akin to raping a child and trying to justify this to others who want to lock you up for it, Answer this for me, would you rather be tied up and gang fucked until you cant sit down or have someone pass you a spliff?</p>
<p> no sorry i take that back giving you anything other than the gang fucking you obviously deserve would be a waste of time and cannabis, you fuckwit!</p>
<p>oh im not sure if your name is supposed to be ironic but just in case its not, do you realise that the modern use of the phrase chillout is related to coming down off drugs! and anything advertised or sold as &#8220;for chilling out&#8221; refers to this and is trying to exploit that drug culture you obviously think is as low as paedophilia and this means you are also exploiting it by choosing you screen name.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/11/02/you-cant-have-politicians-stepping-into-the-scientific-arena/#comment-327967</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://order-order.com/?p=13038#comment-327967</guid>
		<description>Where does this Skunk myth come from, I want to see the chemical analysis from 60s and 70s samples compared to today&#039;s to prove that it&#039;s getting stronger and not just anecdotal and subjective assessments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where does this Skunk myth come from, I want to see the chemical analysis from 60s and 70s samples compared to today&#8217;s to prove that it&#8217;s getting stronger and not just anecdotal and subjective assessments.</p>
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		<title>By: treetop</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/11/02/you-cant-have-politicians-stepping-into-the-scientific-arena/#comment-327795</link>
		<dc:creator>treetop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:22:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://order-order.com/?p=13038#comment-327795</guid>
		<description>One point seemingly forgotten in this debate is how scientists condemned one lady to jail on the strength of scientific evidence about cot death and countless families in Middlesborough were separated from their children for child abuse. All this &#039;scientific evidence&#039; was subsequently found to be wrong. We elect politicians to make judgements, not witchfinder generals who believe themselves to be aloof from doubts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One point seemingly forgotten in this debate is how scientists condemned one lady to jail on the strength of scientific evidence about cot death and countless families in Middlesborough were separated from their children for child abuse. All this &#8217;scientific evidence&#8217; was subsequently found to be wrong. We elect politicians to make judgements, not witchfinder generals who believe themselves to be aloof from doubts.</p>
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		<title>By: Disco Biscuit</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/11/02/you-cant-have-politicians-stepping-into-the-scientific-arena/#comment-326385</link>
		<dc:creator>Disco Biscuit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://order-order.com/?p=13038#comment-326385</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re misreading what he said. &quot;Then there are drugs that have never been used medically and have no medical use&quot; does not mean that it doesn&#039;t have any &lt;i&gt;potential&lt;/i&gt; for medical use or has been trialled (which is what you&#039;re suggesting, and you&#039;re right), just that it has never been &lt;i&gt;used&lt;/i&gt; as a medicine and isn&#039;t now.

He&#039;s differentiating between drugs that are produced only for recreational use, and drugs (eg ketamine) that have medical applications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re misreading what he said. &#8220;Then there are drugs that have never been used medically and have no medical use&#8221; does not mean that it doesn&#8217;t have any <i>potential</i> for medical use or has been trialled (which is what you&#8217;re suggesting, and you&#8217;re right), just that it has never been <i>used</i> as a medicine and isn&#8217;t now.</p>
<p>He&#8217;s differentiating between drugs that are produced only for recreational use, and drugs (eg ketamine) that have medical applications.</p>
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		<title>By: Disco Biscuit</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/11/02/you-cant-have-politicians-stepping-into-the-scientific-arena/#comment-326367</link>
		<dc:creator>Disco Biscuit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://order-order.com/?p=13038#comment-326367</guid>
		<description>No mate, you&#039;re the fucking retard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No mate, you&#8217;re the fucking retard.</p>
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		<title>By: Disco Biscuit</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/11/02/you-cant-have-politicians-stepping-into-the-scientific-arena/#comment-326356</link>
		<dc:creator>Disco Biscuit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:53:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://order-order.com/?p=13038#comment-326356</guid>
		<description>The Nutty Professor had the nerve to tell the truth. The truth is not Government policy, and so the postman sacked the professor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Nutty Professor had the nerve to tell the truth. The truth is not Government policy, and so the postman sacked the professor.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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