November 1st, 2009

Cameron Flashback : “I Will Give This Cast-Iron Guarantee”

ConservativeHome’s Tim Montgomerie says the Lisbon Treaty Referendum is off.   Guido has dug out the September 2007 text of Cameron’s famous cast-iron guarantee to Sun readers.

lisbon_yes_noThe final reason we must have a vote is trust. Gordon Brown talks about “new” politics.  But there’s nothing “new” about breaking your promises to the British public. It’s classic Labour. And it is the cancer that is eating away at trust in politics.  Small wonder that so many people don’t believe a word politicians ever say if they break their promises so casually.  If you really want to signal you’re a break from the past, Prime Minister, do the right thing – give the people the referendum you promised.

dave signatureToday, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations.  No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum.

If it is ratified what is the meaning of this promise?  The Tories will stand on a Eurosceptic ticket and they will be in government with a treaty that has not been sanctioned by a referendum.  Unless they turn the election itself into a referendum, which is risky.  Only if the Tory manifesto says “we will renegotiate our relationship with the EU thus…” will they be able to say they have consulted with and won a mandate from the British people. Will Ken Clarke go along with that?

UPDATE : The Bruges Group headbangers have gone nuclear, Barry Legg has released a statement:

“There was absolutely no wriggle room in the unambiguous pledge he made in September 2007. He offered a “cast iron guarantee” to put any treaty in front of the voters. Why has he changed his mind now? What has changed his mind now?

“It cannot be good enough for a man who wants to be British Prime Minister to hide behind the leader of any other European state. Václav Klaus is a hero in his own country for having stood up to Communism. David Cameron seemingly can’t even stand up for his own past promises.

“What is the point in David Cameron upending one pledge on Europe , but promising he’ll offer us yet more European promises in his general election manifesto? Why will they be any more credible than the ‘cast-iron guarantee’ he has just broken?

“How can David Cameron claim he’ll fight to repatriate powers from Brussels when he won’t even fight to implement his own past words?


332 Comments

  1. 1
    Torontory says:

    Yes

    Like

    • 20
      objet petit a says:

      They’ll never give us a referendum because they know what the answer’s going to be…

      * * *

      http://little-object-a.blogspot.com/

      Like

      • 107
        Andy Coulson's mouthpiece says:

        Eurosceptics are now to be referred to as Bruge Group headbangers

        No dissent will be tolerated

        Keep on message at all times

        Like

        • 167
          rocknroll says:

          why does believing in democracy make someone a headbanger then? yes they might seem stubborn but so what? democracy is worth dying for, nevermind digging your heels in politically.

          Like

        • 202
          Socialists in denial says:

          Like governmnent drug advisors

          Like

          • Think Ahead You Muppets says:

            Murmurings abound that Dave will ask the courts for a legal ruling on the constitutional legality of the Lisbon Treaty and if due process was followed.

            If the courts rule that it was signed illegally it would be null & void and Lisbon would have to wait until the British people had their referendum.

            Bring it on !

            Like

          • Mr Ned says:

            We need more than mere rumours and innuendo.

            Like

          • Chump says:

            Re: Think Ahead You Muppets
            Assuming he takes it to the courts, he’ll end up pleading where? Does the buck still stop at the Supreme Court post-Lisbon?

            Like

          • Onan the Barbarian says:

            Right then, Dave – I’ve slept on it and Fuck You!

            For the first time in my adult life I will not be voting Conservative.

            UKIP get my vote. Thanks a fucking bunch, Dave

            Like

        • 217
          Mr Ned says:

          The ONLY option for us, as the electorate, is to use the general election AS the refefendum.

          The powers that be will hate that, but it will be their fault for not listening to us in the first place. We have no choice.

          The British people have NEVER been given a say on our relationship with the EU. We are past the point of being able to choose a “this far and no further” option. We have reached the point where we have to choose total integration, or withdrawal.

          The mainstream politicians do not want to give us a say on this, so we are being forced, by their inaction, to take matters into our own hands and use the general election as our promised referendum.

          Like

          • ANGRY PEASANT says:

            This is a great idea. Who do we vote for though?

            Like

          • Ivor Schwartzporsche says:

            UKIP once they elect their new leader and name the 550 PPC’s. Open new offices where you can go and volunteer to doorstep, donate monies.
            Anyone who scoffs is akin to someone who refused to pick up a rifle in the last war to save our nation from foreign control. IMO.

            Like

          • olded says:

            Cloud cuckoo land Ivor, UKIP is a Tory front, led and controlled by “Farage” the Tories very own Arthur Daley,(aint they all) “Farage” the serial Brussels drunken adulterer, a man unencumbered with morals, integrity or honour a blood brother to b’liar, Farage is assisted in the upper reaches of UKIP by one or two ex M15/M16 members plus several S/branch insiders and an assortment of ex NF personnel, UKIP is a cul-de-sac, a coral to hold Tory eurosceptics incommunicado, if you or anyone else believes UKIP would remove Britain from the clutches of the EU monster (given the opportunity) you and they are indeed living in cloud cookoooooooooo land, seek help Ivor, try naivety R-US.
            olded.

            Like

          • Sam says:

            I’m afraid this is the only way to make them sit up and listen to the vast majority of the BRITISH and esp the English who do not wish to be ruled by Brussels – or anyone else. The only was to regain our self-respect as a nation – and to clean up parliament – is to return decocracy to this country.

            It makes me despair that huge numbers of foreigners who have taken up residence here (inc the Irish) have a vote, and can force us against our will to be governed by alien and undemocratic cliques and bureaucracies – and I include NEW LABOUR in that description!

            ZanuLabour is totally anti-democratic, down to Parish Council level – it was Prescott who decreed that any councillor – district, local or parish, must leave a debate if he/she campianged on the isssue and/or if it affects that ward or parish! Unferkingbelievable – this edict which I believe is still in force automatically debars any democratically elected representative from fighting the corner of their own electors!

            Which of course makes control from the central so much easier… Control from and by the EU Comission (not, please note, the toothless parliament) is the same syndrome writ large.

            We MUST regain democratic representation in this country, by any menas necessary.
            it has been stolen form us, and Lisbon will be just the las tnail in the coffin
            Some of the leadersip of the party have understood this, inc Hague.

            I just hope someone can make Cameron understand what is going down, what is at stake, and how impossible it will be for many of us to vote for his party unless he does demonstrate this fundamental understanding

            Like

      • 267
        Lisbon Treaty is a massive power grab says:

        The UK referendum con, as explained very well by Daniel Hannan and Nigel Farage. Strange how the press DO NOT mention anywhere that the Lisbon Treaty is self amending, meaning there NEVER has to be another public vote on anything ever again. That’s democracy!?! THIS is what the Irish idiot voters agreed to!

        Like

        • 296
          Sam says:

          This is the single most glaring provision of this power-grabbing treaty, which no commentator will mention. I doubt most of them know of it’s existence! the BBc certainly don’t seem to understand it

          There are also many clauses which will enable the EU to decide which political parties are acceptable, to initiate legal action against both parties and individuals critical of Brussels etc etc

          It’s amazing that so many of our politicians and journalists seem to have no idea what is in this treaty. No democrat could vote for it. You certainly have to ask, why do they?

          Like

    • 22
      Spido says:

      Cameron is definitely NOT to be trusted

      Like

      • 27
        Spido says:

        his signature looks like he’s on cocaine

        Like

      • 119
        Anonymous says:

        Seems trustworthy so far.

        Even if he didn’t specify he’d only have a referendum before the treaty it’s obvious that’s what he meant as it’s stupid to have a vote on something already done.

        But if they then put in the manefesto the same as what all a ‘no’ answer could be from such a useless referendum then I fail to see what the problem is.

        It’s labourites trying to stir up the euro row in the conservatives and it ain’t gonna work.

        Like

        • 123
          brussels louts says:

          nothing is done

          lisbon can be abrogated and a referendum would give it the force of massive popular support

          Like

        • 164
          CALL ME CYNICAL BUT says:

          If it’s “Labourites” As You Claim Why Dont You Blog Under Your Name ? Or Are You Said Labourite ?

          Like

        • 213
          Anonymous says:

          Agree wholeheartedly with Anonymous [119]: the UKIP apologists (including, it would appear, the esteemed GF himself) who want a continuation of the present government need to grow up and look at Cameron’s remarks in context. It is blindingly obvious that he was referring to a referendum AHEAD of ratification, rather than some empty and very expensive form of retrospective gesture politics (go on – does anyone really think you can have a referendum for free) of the sort so-beloved of UKIP et al.

          Like

          • Mr Ned says:

            That is a cowardly cop-out!

            Either one is principled in opposition to the reform treaty and everything that this creates, or one is a scheming opportunist.

            The fact that Lisbon (should Klaus not hold a referendum) is about to be ratified should NOT lead to our supine acceptance of a thoroughly unacceptable, undemocratic, anti-constitutional situation.

            It very much appears that Cameron is about to cave-in over Europe. That being the case, there are very many principled people who will feel that they have no choice but to use the election as the promised referendum and vote UKIP.

            IF you fear the loss of Conservative MP’s in marginals due to a higher UKIP vote, then lobby Cameron to change his policy and respect his prior promise and to give the people a legally binding say.

            You may fear the tories losing enough seats to gift a victory to labour. The way I see it, if we are not given a say on the EU, then it matters not which EU puppets are elected to downing street.

            It is in Cameron’s power to eliminate UKIP. He could do so easily.

            You have to ask, why does he not do it?

            Like

          • Ivor Schwartzporsche says:

            It was obvious that he said it was unacceptable to have Lisbon without the British population having a democratic vote on our future sovereignty. What has changed? You are implying that we have to accept Lisbon because of an unfortunate time-out. As if a bloody clock over-rules our democracy.

            Like

          • righty right wing (mrs) says:

            He promised.

            If he cannot honour this “cast iron promise” he may as well be the heir to Blair.

            And dissent from the pro EU line & wanting the Tory leader to honour his promises now gets one the title “headbanger”?

            Duly noted.

            Like

    • 26
      The Scam that is Call Me Dave says:

      Heap Big Call Me Dave speak with fork tongue.

      CMD also claims the maximum mortagage allowance for a london second home, even though he owns a london first home within the Bells of St Bow.

      Like

      • 79
        Road_Hog says:

        I was reminded only today (by a Labour supporter on Labour List) that Cameron offered a promise that there would be a referendum come what may.

        If Call Me Dave the Reneger, bottles it or reneges on his promise, then he can forget my vote. I live in the Warwick & Leamington constituency and my Labour MP has a majority of 266, but I’ll vote UKIP, I don’t care if Labour keeps the seat, because the Conservatives will be no different.

        Vote Call Me Dave get BluLabour.

        Like

        • 92
          Jimmy says:

          Good for you!

          Like

          • Yep, me too. Give us a referendum Dave or you can kiss my big hairy Northern arse goodbye. I’ll be voting UKIP. Tell Ken Clarke to fuck off- he’s out-numbered and out-gunned and past it. Nobody with half a brain believes in the EU because it is undemocratic and utterly corrupt. Fuck Lisbon; we need to renegotiate our membership or just fuck off out of it completely.

            Like

        • 121
          Anonymous says:

          Have a little faith folks Dave won’t bendover and allow us to get screwed he’ll cowtow on what he thinks reasonable and play hardball on anything he deems is not.After all we are net contributers and therefore have leverage so chill – why isolate ourselves we can attempt to change the EU for the better internally,hence the E.C.R group.If we lock ourselves out ,without trying to reform it is madness.Its is totally defeatist and will lead to isolation.Maybe the EU can be reformed,maybe it can’t but we’ll never know unless we give our best efforts to try.So stop fucking moaning and get real.Thankyou.

          Like

          • Budgie says:

            After 37 years in the EU and you still think the EU can be reformed from within? You must be stark staring bonkers – move over Gordoom, here’s another one.

            Like

          • Anonymous says:

            Budgie I think it shows us after the Euro Elections Europe is moving to the centre right of things, added with the new E.C.R group, things are looking brighter for a move in that direction.No madness about it ,it’s a tangible move in the right direction.It’s not very wise to remove yourself from the game just because you think you’ll lose-glass have full and all ;-)

            Like

          • CALL ME CYNICAL BUT says:

            You Fucking TiT “Change Things From Within ?” They Will Promise Him And His Riches Beyond His Wildest Dreams To play Ball And Sell His Country Down The River Same As All The By Gone Hunts That Put Us Here In The First Place !

            Like

          • Sam says:

            There is absolutely NO CHANCE WATEVER of reform from within. France and Germany keep making agreements between themselves, to suit their own agenda, and they are the powerbrokers in the EU, not us. They are NOT interested in reforming anything, neither the CAP, the fisheries policy, nor the democratic deficit – everything is run to suit them. Neither country has much history of democracy – why should they care?

            “It is in Cameron’s power to eliminate UKIP. He could do so easily.” [Mr Ned]
            Could it be that he won’t since all senior politicians now know that the EU gives them a second and even more lucrative career once their own electorate has had enough of them?

            I just wish Dan Hannan would join UKIP were he belongs and might quickly become leader. The party really does need some heavyweights, some thinkers, and some politicians of experience. Meanwhile most of us EU-haters are in a cleft stick

            Like

          • John Hall says:

            You’re absolutely stark raving bonkers if you think reform can be brought about by engagement with the EU on its own terms.

            Like

          • MaisieW says:

            What the hell is going on Dave said all this when he is Prime Minister
            He will do as he says, ask Michael Howard

            Like

          • Archie says:

            Well, the old “the EU can be reformed from within” mantra has been CMD’s mantra ever he slithered into view. That he is so deluded as to believe this disqualifies him for consideration as a serious politician, never mind PM, IMNSHO!

            Like

        • 208
          You've 'ad yer chance now Feck Off! says:

          If Cameron tries to brush this under the carpet into a manifesto promise then he is little better than the current Hoons that lied to the people.

          He’s playing a very dangerous game. UKIP will split his vote in the marginals should it become clear that Cameron is willing to accept Lisbon and give the voters no say.

          If the electorate is faced with no choice they’ll protest vote, GE or not and CCHQ should note the damage that can do by studying the last set of Euro and local Council figures.

          It’s not been a great weekend for the Conservatives. First they stay silent on the whole debarcle that was the sacking of Professor Nutt – and their silence says everything we need to know about Cameron’s position on scientific evidence vs politics; and now this.

          I’d have to be without sound mind to ever vote for Labour but my Conservative vote is not going to be forthcoming if we’re going to end up with Blue Labour in all but name.

          The next few days are going to become very interesting.

          Like

        • 227
          backwoodsman says:

          Luckily Road Hog, even if you do throw your toys out of the pram and go off & join the 3% who voted for ukip, Camerons’ ability to appeal to the floating voter & the fringe of the 27% of deadheads who still vote labour, should be enough to end the nulab regime. Anyone who doesn’t see that as the primary political issue, has problems.

          Like

          • Ivor Schwartzporsche says:

            You need to imagine the support UKIP will get. It will be formidable. Us British don’t get roused very often but when we do we are the best at it.
            And going back to the european situation……

            Like

          • Samantha says:

            Quote: Anyone who doesn’t see that as the primary political issue, has problems –

            No! No no – the primary problem is that you, and so many like you, can’t see that if Lisbon comes into force here, then it doesn’t matter one iota which party is ‘in power’ as our parliament will just be a shell. Our laws will be hanbed down from elsewhere (as most already are).

            Power will have then wholly shifted to Brussels, and since the Treaty is ‘self-amending’ Brussels can go on grabbing power indefinitely. Wake up, you Sheeple!

            Like

          • Anonymous says:

            Cameron does not appeal to me any more, neither do the Tories.

            Like

    • 127
      Churchill's Cattleprod says:

      Aw, I would have thought you would be commenting on Philip Hollobone’s comment on 5th November fireworks.

      http://uk.news.yahoo.com/11/20091029/tpl-mp-calls-for-ban-on-fireworks-0a1c1a1.html

      Just to reiterate, Philip Hollobone is the only MP who is scrupuously above board on all of his expenses …

      Like

      • 154

        He has gone down in my estimation.

        Like

        • 299
          Samantha says:

          I normally hate to ban things, but anyone who owns dogs, cats or horses dreads Nov 5th and New Year, because of the fireworks. I’d like to see their use restricted to a couple of nights in each case, when we can take appropriate action!

          Dog owners in particular suffer great disruption at this season, so we’re glad people aren’t burning quite so much money this year!

          Like

      • 161
        Davy says:

        Yes a paragon of virtue, and he’s cheap to run.

        Like

      • 218
        Anonymous says:

        We really do have a thing about fireworks here.

        With all the public service announcements me and my friends grew up with in the 80s, we thought fireworks were as dangerous as paedophiles now, and that you’d die if you went near a lit one – DON’T GO BACK TO AN UNLIT FIREWORK etc.

        Then you go abroad, and they’re just holding them in their hands and setting them off.

        You also don’t end up with your hand in a huge bandage if you pick up a discarded sparkler from the ground (why you’d do that anyway, except to test if they lied to us -which they did-, I’m not sure)

        Like

        • 249
          Pride's Purge says:

          Maybe it’s the recession, but I was thinking how few fireworks have been let off around here so far this year. Hope that isn’t famous last words and I don’t wake in the morning to find some tosser has lit a couple on the doorstep! Purely a personal reflection, but I really don’t see that Guy Fawkes was the greatest villain this country has ever produced. Hopefully that won’t be such a lonely point of view this year. And as for the other reason for celebrating November 5th – William of Orange landing at Torbay – well, that led via the Tonnage Act to the mortgaging of England, Scotland and Ireland to the Banksters. Count me out of celebrating that one!

          Like

    • 238
      Ivor Schwartzporsche says:

      Oh dear. There are 189 related comments on CMD’s own blog:
      http://blog.conservatives.com/index.php/2009/10/31/labour-have-been-exposed-across-three-fronts/

      Like

      • 324
        Archie says:

        The most impressive thing about Cameron’s blog is the number of “Does he ever read any of this, if not why are we bothering to post?” posts. Much like posters to the Spectator and Telegraph, in fact

        Like

  2. 2
    Anonymous says:

    “No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum”
    ….is the let out clause, it will have been done and dusted when he comes to power.

    Like

    • 7
      fred says:

      This man Dacid Cameron is not to be trusted

      Like

      • 11
        Merely A Passer By says:

        Unlike that unimpeachable paragon of honour, truth and courage…Mr Brooon.

        Like

      • 14

        It’s time to resist. Burn the Lisbon treaty and EU flag on bonfire night and post the results on YouTube:

        Like

        • 83
          Davy says:

          Evenin all
          Is this turkey voting for Christmas?

          Like

        • 90
          Road_Hog says:

          Me thinks that Dan Hannan will become a UKIP MEP in the next 6 months.

          Like

        • 95
          Jimmy says:

          I’m broadly supportive of the EU but I can’t help being reminded that it is the institution responsible for Ratface Hannan being on TV.

          Like

          • Budgie says:

            Why on earth are you ‘broadly supportive of the EU’? The EU has taken away our national sovereignty; is corrupt; and has no democratic accountability of its own. Just look: ‘they’ are appointing il Presidente and a Foreign Minister – we are not allowed to vote for them.

            Like

          • Fuck You EU says:

            he probably knows where he stands though

            the idea that this isn’t a confusing mess and that Dave hadn’t been trying to give coded signals that he would hold a referendum and all would be well to placate those furious at Lisbon is simply untenable

            eurosceptics have every right to be pissed off and pretending this isn’t a big issue will backfire

            merely mouthing platitudes about future renegotiations from a point of weakness simply will not do

            Mr Wheeler is looking somewhat prescient now

            Like

          • CALL ME CYNICAL BUT says:

            Jimmy Mc TAT Fuck Off !

            Like

        • 300
          Samantha says:

          After Lisbon takes effect that will be a criminal offence !
          (It might be already…. they wouldn’t tell us of course)

          Like

    • 9
      Budgie says:

      The problem is that if Lisbon is ratified Cameron cannot do anything about it, unless he threatens to leave the EU. He won’t do that (which is why I don’t support the Tories). Only by the threat would he be able to make the other members of the EU come to the negotiating table. He cannot or won’t see this.

      So the small parties and the independents (those who oppose the EU, anyway) should be supported to break the strangle hold of the establishment consensus of unthinking subjugation to the undemocratic and corrupt EU.

      Like

    • 182
      F.U. E.U. says:

      Have the British poeple been consulted ?

      NO

      should it be ratified since it hasn’t ?

      NO

      Like

  3. 3
    Man With a Very Hot Bladder says:

    For God’s sake – Don’t believe Cameron.

    He is a Bilderberg stooge.

    Like

    • 8
      The Yorkshire Ripper says:

      At least Cameroon has some substance and appears to have sense when he opens his mouth. That fucking idiot Milliband’s a two-faced, shit-eating bogbend of a man who fails to inspire any form of confidence. Have you seen his face? It’s like a constant moving sneer coupled with that look of a pair of headlights about to hit him. Utterly clueless – no policy, no voice, no balls – just all cock.

      Like

      • 13
        Spido says:

        fuck off attention seeker

        Like

        • 33
          The Yorkshire Ripper says:

          It’s OT but the positioning that wankstain is on and bullshit from Labour over who’s going to be sitting where at the EU dining table drives me up the wall. They’re fucking hypocrites – first it’s backing Bliar (which got the bullet), then it’s Millipede…what? The man’s a walking disaster.

          As for the treaty, Cameron will never go to the country. Politicians never do for fear of what folk will do – everyone’s got a vote but there’s plenty who have no intelligence or perception on what they’re really voting for. BBC interview pre ’97 election on the street about Liebour being the next in power – some old wifey spouts’…oh, we could do with a change….’ – yes old girl, that carefree thinking you got a change alright. Busted economy, two illegal wars, an NHS still unable to function properly, an education system in tatters, social disorder going off the deep end and immigration out of control. Meanwhile, good ol’ McBust and his fraternity just continue to rip the piss out the nation with their only concern being how full their pockets are and securing next years meal ticket. It’s one thing to say your running a country – it would help if the Liebore Cretins actually had a stab at looking like they were fucking trying to.

          Like

          • Spido says:

            what you show politicians by going on like that is that you actually care one way or the other — if you really want to get under their skin – IGNORE them!

            Like

          • The Yorkshire Ripper says:

            No vote means no say. No say means no voice. No voice = state control of everything you turn up for. They still pull the strings – if they think you’re about to pull their card (i.e. fuck them off out of control) then they tend to realign their thoughts and priorities. I don’t really want to get under their skin – I’d rather Snotty went blind, Millishite has a car accident and the rest of the 60 million people come to their senses and get rid of this lot who have lost control of the country. Their complete indifference to the danger coming from the EU has shown what a total gaggle of Hoons Bliar left behind, all fighting for their own corner and bath plugs.

            Like

      • 15
        Merely A Passer By says:

        No moustache yet either!

        Like

        • 96
          The Yorkshire Ripper says:

          Look on the bright side…if it appears, you know immigration is about to stop being a problem….

          Like

  4. 4
    nell says:

    Do we have the legal power to renegotiate if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified before the tories win the next election?

    If we do we should but where do we stand legally?

    Anybody out there know?

    Like

    • 10
      Spido says:

      the tories seem to think so – they say they “wont let it rest”

      Like

    • 12
      Jimmy says:

      If he can persuade all the friends he’s made in Europe then yes. They’ll be up for it. After all it was such fun the first time.

      Like

      • 19
        Spido says:

        well Cameron MIGHT have painted himself into a cornet – tiem will tell – and nell aka Guido is trying to extricate him from it – but it wont be that easy coz he will look like a reall doughnut if he can’t deliver when the time comes (oh dear what a shame).

        Like

        • 94
          Big Bazongas says:

          What are you on, Spido? I’ve never read such badly written drivel since the last Liabour manifesto.

          Like

          • The Yorkshire Ripper says:

            He struggles once he gets beyond 4 words. It’s too much for him. See below on about 4 of my posts – he’s just another Tory hater with no arguments and no clues. Troll.

            Like

    • 32
      Budgie says:

      When Lisbon is ratified we lose the sole legal right to leave the EU using our own Parliament.

      Instead we must comply with para2 of Article 50 ‘Voluntary withdrawal from the Union’. The essence is that we must ask the EU for permission to leave, but the EU decides the terms. They can set any terms they like and we are not a party to the negotiation.

      Whether there is any provision for refusal is unclear to me (see Article 218) but the terms could be so onerous as to force us to stay in. Especially if the europhiles kick up a fuss the EU may decide that the request to withdraw is not the opinion of the country.

      Like

      • 55
        Davy says:

        That’s it then we must declare war on Europe.

        Like

      • 97
        BBC News 24 says:

        Fuck ‘em! Tell me, just what are the Germans and French going to do about it?

        Invade us? Doubtful.

        Fine us? Likely, but tell them to piss off.

        And do you think they want to destroy the biggest importer of their products in Europe? Billions go OUT of the UK into Germany and France.

        Let’s see if they’ve got the balls. I very much doubt it, personally.

        Like

      • 231
        Mr Ned says:

        That is exactly why we MUST use the general election as our referendum, as this will be the ONLY time we will be consulted.

        Vote for any candidate that is opposed to the Lisbon Treaty!

        Cameron has the power to completely derail UKIP on this and this is the one think that Farage is terrified of.

        So why won’t Cameron do it?

        Like

        • 303
          Pride's Purge says:

          He won’t, because he can’t. The blue tories took Britain into the EUSSR, kept Britain in the EUSSR, forced through the Single European Act and Maastricht Treaty. That’s want they are programmed to do. Voting Tory in the blue red or yellow versions to oppose the EUSSR is about as hopeful as finding a cure for the pox in a brothel.

          Like

      • 326
        Archie says:

        That’s just silly, Budgie! We stop IMMEDIATELY any payments to the EU and withdraw our Eurocrats from the Berleymont (or let them stay there. Who gives a fuck?), and generally tell them to go and fuck themselves. How many hospitals, schools and old-age pension payment increases would THAT little lot pay for?

        Like

    • 48
      Hugh Bristic says:

      I suspect the legal position would be that the treaty is binding.
      But what are the Brussels bureaucrats going to do if a referendum actually takes place?
      Will they send an ultimatum that unless we adhere to the terms of the treaty they will declare war on the UK? What sanctions are they capable of applying?
      Cameron should declare his intention to have a referendum as promised.
      That would make for an interesting election.

      Like

    • 137
      A Pensioner says:

      The legalities are meaningless. The EU needs the UK and vice versa. If I were PM my first act would be to tear up the treaty (physically on prime time), tell France and Germany to get stuffed, and announce a new treaty with the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

      What cal the Euro turds do? Declare war? We know how good the French and the Italians are at fighting, and the Germans troops are all fat.

      Like

      • 172
        Ivor Schwartzporsche says:

        I think that if our new leader tore up the treaty on live TV there would be riots on the continent by peoples wanting their furhers to do the same

        Like

      • 176
        number 10's cat says:

        they are members of NATO just like us. So we ask them to attack each other

        Like

      • 228
        Chump says:

        …and they’re not allowed out of their barracks after nightfall.

        Like

    • 189
      rocknroll says:

      yes a later parliament can repeal the act which passed any treaty into law. all the talk of a post-ratification referendum being “pointless” is just from those ignorant of parliamentary conventions.

      Like

      • 235
        Mr Ned says:

        Too right, and Cameron and the tories are utterly dependent upon the ignorance of the masses, in order to offer them some protection from calls of cowardice or collaboration with a foreign power to commit treason upon this sovereign soil!

        Cameron has NO excuse for breaking a cast iron guaranteed promise. NONE.

        It is in his power to determine IF he wants a labour/liberal coalition as the largest group in a hung Parliament, with several UKIP and BNP members of Parliament. OR if he wants to win the election by a landslide.

        Why will he not kill off UKIP? WHO is he really being most loyal to? It does NOT appear to be the British electorate. Are we finally seeing this Rothschild puppet exposing himself for what he really is?

        Like

      • 236
        Mr Ned says:

        Too right, and Cameron and the tories are utterly dependent upon the ignorance of the masses, in order to offer them some protection from calls of cowardice or collaboration with a foreign power to commit treason upon this sovereign soil!

        Cameron has NO excuse for breaking a cast iron guaranteed promise. NONE.

        It is in his power to determine IF he wants a labour/liberal coalition as the largest group in a hung Parliament, with several UKIP and B&P members of Parliament. OR if he wants to win the election by a landslide.

        Why will he not kill off UKIP? WHO is he really being most loyal to? It does NOT appear to be the British electorate. Are we finally seeing this Rothschild puppet exposing himself for what he really is?

        Like

    • 192
    • 302
      Sam says:

      there are two ways Lisbon can be annulled or canged once it’s in force.

      One is that we abrogate – which we should, since the people never had any say and it’s clear they/we are totally against it (esp those who actually understand it!). Cameron could have a referendum on ‘Abrogation or Re-Negotiation’ but he won’t because it would ‘tear the party apart’.

      The other is a legal challenge, which soudl on te face of it succeed; but imo it would fail because so many judges are now Left/Liberal placemen and stooges. Go-getting and clever barristers who want to make money (ie Tories) don’t become judges any more – it’s not well paid enough – so those wo do, tend to be politically motivated.

      Like

  5. 4
    Moley says:

    A referendum was promised by labour and that promise was broken.

    Parliament’s ratification of the treaty is therefore illegal.

    Cameron’sposition is clear; Britain cannot accept the treaty until it is put to a referendum

    Like

    • 41
      A fly on the bunker wall says:

      Why doesn’t he say that then?

      Like

      • 237
        Mr Ned says:

        Indeed, that would kill off any threat by UKIP stone dead!

        So why doesn’t he do it?

        Like

        • 310
          Pride's Purge says:

          Because, my innocent friend, that isn’t what he’s there for! He’s another Blair: a public schoolboy with a great desire to party and little interest in politics at uni, who suddenly pops up, gets a safe seat and gets elevated to the leadership of his party. No doubt pretty much the same people arranged Cameron’s elevation as arranged Blair’s, so that he can do exactly as they tell him. He isn’t Britain’s great hope: he’s there to make sure the next election is between two (and a half, counting the Libdems) versions of the same shit. If you want something better, think outside the box.

          Like

    • 52
      Budgie says:

      That option has already been tested in the courts by Stuart Wheeler. The BBC said: ‘Mr Wheeler, a prominent Conservative Party donor, told the BBC he had issued a “letter before the claim” to Prime Minister Gordon Brown.’

      His legal challenge failed, unfortunately. So Brown’s cowardice and bad faith are legal according to the courts.

      Like

      • 128
        Anonymous says:

        and by your own reasoning Daves cowardice and bad faith

        Like

        • 138
          Budgie says:

          No, because Cameron is not in power, Brown is. Cameron opposed Lisbon as it went through our parliament and called for the reinstatement of the referendum all along the way.

          Like

          • Ivor Schwartzporsche says:

            But he didn’t allow the Bill Cash amendment

            Like

          • The Ghost of Christmas Past says:

            It didnt go through our parliament surely?

            From what i remember of it, fatmcfuck and his banana quaffing chum arrived in brussels ( late as usual) to sign us into bondage on a whim.

            Like

          • Ivor Schwartzporsche says:

            It also wasn’t read by our Parliament. Remember the minister for europe, caroline flint, who admitted she hadn’t read it? No body read it because they didn’t have the Constitution to merge with the Lisbon amendments. It is being published today.
            See Christoper Booker DT yesterday article.

            Like

  6. 6
    Jimmy says:

    If Ken can keep a straight face while Gideon Wallpaper talks about economics, then I’m sure he’ll be able to swallow this nonsense. You just get the impression he doesn’t really care any more.

    Like

  7. 16

    Guido,

    Like so many you miss the point. Any promise to renegotiate is meaningless in that said rengotiation would need the final agreement of the other 26 members and this is unlikely – is it not? Likewise the promise to ‘claw back certain powers’ – another meaningless manifesto promise for the same reason.

    All this latest ‘statement’ – if what Tim Montgomerie says is correct – is to deepen the hole in which the Tories are already in!

    Expected better of you Guido, comment wise!

    Like

    • 39

      Dear Witterer,

      A sovereign state ultimately can threaten to withdraw without any agreement. So a state with the will to negotiate can so do, if it doesn’t get satisfaction, it has to leave the club.

      Like

      • 74
        Budgie says:

        I really, really wish you were right Guido. But Lisbon is not a treaty in the strict sense because it changes the legal position we are in. Any normal treaty can be repealed at Westminster, but Lisbon is not normal.

        After Lisbon, EU laws have primacy; the EU has the legal right to exist and make treaties of its own, just like the USA; and we have to ask the EU’s permission to leave. We approach Lisbon as an independent state (well, just), but after Lisbon we are just a constituent part of a new (EU) whole.

        If Cameron gets into power, legally all we could do is ask the other members to re-negotiate – some of them at least will say no. Lisbon means we simply cease to be an independent nation and we are then stuffed – totally. Civil war, anyone?

        Like

        • 112
          Ken Clarke is pissing himself laughing right now says:

          Lisbon can be Abrogated
          A Referendum is entirely in the gift of a British Prime Minister and no-one else

          Simple as that

          Like

          • Budgie says:

            Abrogation (repeal) is not legally possible after Lisbon. It is not like other treaties because it contains within it the provision for withdrawal. That is the only option legally open to us, other than asking all 26 other members to renegotiate, which will fail.

            Like

          • Ken Clarke is pissing himself laughing right now says:

            The force of the British public saying no in a Referndum backed up by it’s Sovereign Prime Minster or the force of a Treaty legal technicality ?

            Easy winner there

            Like

          • Of course it’s legal to abrogate the treaty!

            Have you forgotten that it’s the people of the UK who are sovereign? It is not parliaments to give away.

            Like

          • Neather says:

            its easy to see now why they have imported EU voters with our money, we are being wiped out.

            Like

      • 87

        Guido,

        budgie is right – if Lisbon is ratified, we will be party to a legal agreement and consequently would have to abide by the withdrawal clause in said agreement!

        Do pay attention, there’s a good chap!

        Now, were we to repeal the ECA 1972 Act – that would be different. As to any fines, so what – sue us. They will need far more from us in ‘trade’ than we need from them, plus we have the rest of the world with which to trade, unfettered by EU rules. They would soon ‘cave in’.

        I would go slightly beyond budgie and? civil war – revolution anyone

        Like

        • 102
          The Yorkshire Ripper says:

          My point exactely further down. But in theory it quantifies what Guido is alluring to. It’s a bit of paper. What are they going to do? They don’t like us anyway. Like the post about Spain going back on Utrecht deal – what’s stopping them? Not a lot, apart from meeting some Challenger tanks, a few English-speaking gents holding guns and probably a phone call from someone in a large house painted white on the other side of the Atlantic….there’s things you can and CAN’T do. I’m not saying pulling the plug and saying cheerio to our gloating, fat-cat fucking Euro buddies will be easy but so what about the fines. Like you said, bin the ECA 1972 Act and it’s all gravy….

          Like

        • 111
          Budgie says:

          No, unfortunately, we will not be able to repeal the ECA, after Lisbon, because of the reasons I stated above in 32 and 74. (We could repeal the ECA before Lisbon).

          By signing Lisbon we have agreed to accept the Lisbon Article (50) on the method of withdrawal from the EU. This is why the German courts insisted that Germany’s parliament should remain supreme. The UK didn’t. Brown has sold us down the river. Never mind his economic incompetence, Brown is truly monstrously evil for this betrayal alone.

          Like

          • The Yorkshire Ripper says:

            Ok, quite correct. In any event, my original point stands. It’s a bit of paper. Fuck the rest of it. They need our cash – like the old saying ‘…whilst you still can, do.’

            Like

          • Charlie Whelan ate my hampster says:

            This is indeed the problem, and the real tragedy is that so few of our politicians are aware of the provisions of Lisbon (same was true of Maastricht and all the others – but this one is a different kettle of stinking fish altogether)

            As Booker has pointed out in the past, the Treaty also outlaws political dissent to the EU so it’s going to be impossible to find any way short of war to extircate ourselves. And how the countries of europe woudl love to send their troops in to ‘pacifyu’ us.

            Churchill, Attlee, and our fathers and grandfathers who fought two world wars for our freedom must be reeling in their graves. On Sunday even we heathens go to church to remember and to thank them for their sacrifice.

            What a bitter day that will be, now it has proved to be utterly in vain

            Like

        • 136
          Road_Hog says:

          On a technicality point of view you’re probably right.

          But at the end of the day if the UK said, we’re leaving and because we’re leaving we’re not bothered about the rules and the 2 year withdrawal agreement and you can stuff it where the sun doesn’t shine, there isn’t much they could do about it.

          But back in reality land, I can’t see any mainstream party doing that.

          Like

          • Budgie says:

            I like your’s, and the Yorkshire Ripper’s attitude, but as you say, Road Hog, ‘I can’t see any mainstream party doing that.’ More’s the pity.

            Lisbon is depressing because it seems that one of the very few options is a European ‘civil war’, which I don’t want. The only other ways seem to require a unanimity about leaving which I fear we cannot get in the UK, unless of course the EU is collapsing, when it won’t be needed.

            Like

          • We could just kill all those running the EU?

            Decapitation will be less bloody in the long run.

            Like

          • Henry Crun says:

            Ooh a pogrom AC1. I like it!

            Like

          • Mr Ned says:

            Budgie’s point is correct and this is one of the most duplicitous things that the EU is doing. I heard a debate on the radio and this proponent and supporter of the Lisbon Reform Treaty was claiming the Euro sceptics (or realists as I call them) should support the Lisbon treaty as this creates for the first time ever, a mechanism for withdrawal from the EU.

            The sad bint did not realise, I suppose, that we could have merely repealed the earlier act and been out ‘just like that’?

            The new mechanism, as I understand it, would take at least two years, during which time we would have NO voting rights in the EU at all and would be at the mercy of the other consumed, former member states.

            The other item of concern is the EU being granted a legal personality for the first time. This is indeed the birth of a new, and foreign, nation. A nation with a foreign legal system, a foreign justice system and a wholly undemocratic political system. All these systems are utterly alien to the sovereignty enjoyed by Britons for centuries.

            The EU could have been a wonderful institution, IF it had been developed with the settled consent of the peoples of Europe. If it had been democratically developed with the co-operation of her peoples.

            But it hasn’t. It has been imposed from above in the most foul, underhand, dishonest, lie filled con of the modern era.

            Like

          • Budgie says:

            Thank you Mr Ned, an excellent comment.

            Like

  8. 17
    Onan the Barbarian says:

    Call Me Dave will shove some tough talk in the manifesto that amounts to bugger all and that will be that.

    Do not trust CMD on this issue. He will betray us.

    Like

    • 27
      Jimmy says:

      I expect a manifesto commitment to write one of those clever acrostic letters to the Commission.

      That’ll show them.

      Like

    • 82
      Budgie says:

      We are already betrayed by Liebore and the Lib Dims. After Lisbon the UK becomes a different legal entity – entirely subject to the EU. We lost. Cameron is irrelevant.

      Like

  9. 18
    rick says:

    Dave could not be clearer:
    “No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum”

    A treaty ratified without a referendum will not be legitimate and acceptable by the British people. Dave must restate this in unequivocal terms before the election. If he does not, then it is the duty of the electorate to vote for a party who will. ANY party.

    Like

    • 46
      Davy says:

      The big problem is that once the Lisbon Treaty is ratified the EU does not have to make any new treaties. So we are dog knotted,subservient to Brussells forever.
      What an Effing Mess!

      Like

    • 126
      Inspector Cyril Blake says:

      he said “should” and not “must” – there’s a difference. The former what ought to happen, but might not, whilst the latter, being imperative rather than auxiliary, states what will happen. Call Me Dave like all slippery politicos uses language carefully; it’s clever, but it means that he leaves himself a get out, for when the time comes for him to say “well I wanted the people to have a referendum but I can’t because ”

      Basically he’s said nothing other than expressing a preference. It is not a commitment, no matter how he wraps it up to sound good. Unlike another party that actually promised a referendum as a manifesto pledge and got re-elected, but keep dodging the issue because “the time isn’t right…” and it never will be because, as someone else stated, they lnow what the result will be (a resounding no)

      so the timescale for an EU referendum looks something like this; not now, not next year, sometime maybe, and never.

      Like

      • 205
        The Ghost of Christmas Past says:

        The words “cast iron promise” .

        There dosent appear to be much wriggle room there.

        Referendum, NOW!

        Like

        • 244
          Inspector Cyril Blake says:

          “cast-iron promise” is just typical politico waffle, of the same order as “let me be absolutely clear” – his promise is worthless if, as is likely, the treaty is ratified before he comes into office. He’ll then be bound by it and any referendum would be pointless, unfortunately. That gets CMD off the hook, but he’ll have to take the political fallout with the electorate here, whilst the Labour traitors and troghers jolly off to Europe having sold their country out, but they won’t be bothered once the country formerly known as Great Britain becomes nothing more than an district soviet of the EUSSR.

          CMD is just posturing because he knows it goes down well with the electorate, but his promise has no weight, because he’ll never be able to keep it. I honestly think that even if in the unlikely event that we did get a referendum, it would be just on “aspects” of the Treaty and not the treaty itself, and never on what really matters to people, getting out of the EU altogether.

          Like

          • Mr Ned says:

            Well if the political pygmies in all parties won’t keep their promises, then it falls to us, the people, to keep those promises for them.

            We WILL have our referendum. We will use the general election for that specific purpose. We will create a mass, grass-roots movement to highlight that purpose and by God, we will have OUR say!

            Like

  10. 21
    The Baiters Master says:

    A Treaty once signed is binding. The Tories are floudering on the issue, if they renege on the Lisbon Treaty what’s to stop Spain from doing the same on the Treaty of Utrecht and claiming Gibralter?

    Like

    • 24
      Spido says:

      Trouble is – it will be too late when folks realise he has feet of clay – we will ALL be lumbered with him and his chinless wonders from Bullingdon, what?!

      WAKE UP – do NOT vote tory – anything but tory

      Like

      • 36
        Onan the Barbarian says:

        No, I will still vote Tory because another term of Labour will annihilate my country.

        But I suspect Call Me Dave has sown the seeds of his political destruction this very day.

        Like

        • 57
          Spido says:

          don’t be so stupid

          Like

        • 114
          Bye Bye Brown says:

          On which planet has Brown a snowballs chance in hell of winning ?

          He’s fucked, done, over, an ex prime minister, He has ceased to be! ‘E’s expired and gone to meet ‘is maker! ‘E’s a stiff! Bereft of life, ‘e rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed ‘im to the dispatch box ‘e’d be pushing up the daisies! ‘Is metabolic processes are now ‘istory! ‘E’s off the twig! ‘E’s kicked the bucket, ‘e’s shuffled off ‘is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PRIME MINISTER!!

          Like

    • 30
      Ken says:

      The British armed forces.

      Like

    • 34
      rick says:

      “A treaty once signed is binding” This is total bullshit MB and you know it.
      A signed treaty is not a law of nature in the same way the force of gravity is. A treaty signed on behalf of a people without the consent of those people is worthless. Just as any contract entered into without the consent of both parties is meaningless.

      Like

      • 42
        Onan the Barbarian says:

        Here! Here!

        CMD has miscalculated badly with his “cast iron promise”.

        Hold the referendum, if we vote it down, withdraw from Lisbon.

        If the EU cut up rough, we can vote to withdraw from that as well.

        Like

      • 122
        Budgie says:

        The UK constitution uses the legal point that: ‘No parliament may bind its successor’. So under normal circumstances the UK can sign treaties and repeal treaties just as each parliament chooses.

        Unfortunately, by signing up to Lisbon, which is not a normal treaty, the UK has legally bound itself to only withdraw from the EU by asking the EU’s permission (Lisbon Article 50). We have lost the parliamentary independence to leave of our own accord by repealing the ECA (1972). After Lisbon we are merely a constituent of the new state of the EU.

        Like

        • 143
          Euro-Dave says:

          A legal technicality or the force of massive popular support from a referendum that withdrawall would gain

          I know which I’d put my money on being more binding for the UK
          If the EU tried to argue with that then more fool them

          Like

          • Budgie says:

            There would be a massive vote against Lisbon, but not unfortunately for withdrawal. In any cases the Tories have said time and again that they will not withdraw, so they won’t even offer a referendum on withdrawal.

            Like

          • Euro-Dave says:

            withdrawall from Lisbon not withdrawall from the EU
            my fault for not being clear

            However if the EU ignored a huge vote against Lisbon you and I know what the consequences of that would be and then everything would be in play

            Like

          • I'll have some of that says:

            Get real. There will be no massive support for withdrawal from the EU. Bring on the referendum. Simple question. In or out. In will win.

            I’m not saying this is good, desirable or whatever. But all those asking for a “referendum” (particularly on something that’s already been and gone) are sawing away at the branch they’re sitting on, fondly imagining that the rest of the country shares their own delusions.

            Fuck the referendum and the EU. We need to destroy NuLabour. We can deal with not paying our share, and being in the Euro awkward squad, after the next election.

            This EU crap is like Labour’s loony defence policy through the 80’s – when ideological purity was more important than political power.

            It doesn’t fucking matter what you think about the EU if Nu lab gets off the hook. Get a grip.

            Like

          • Euro-Dave says:

            Firstly, Brown is going to lose and lose big
            Anyone capable of reading an opinion poll knows that much
            So remove this Brown threat hysteria from your mind

            Secondly, the referendum is on lisbon, it will win, hugely
            Again anyone capable of reading a poll knows this
            All else flows from that consequence

            Thirdly, this is not a minor policy detail, it is crucial
            What is clear is that those who are claiming we cannot have a referendum and connot remove ourselves from the treaty via abrogation are saying that British Sovereignity has been supplanted
            That’s as serious as a heart attack and if you think we’ve been bombarded by EU Directives and Laws before Lisbon after Lisbon they will be backed up by a treaty we have no power to object to
            It affects everything
            Defence, economics, law, business, healthcare, education, the individual freedoms of every UK citizen

            Lisbon makes the EU an overarching entity from which UK policy can only be framed from within it’s confines
            The only way out is to get rid of it and roll back it’s undemocratic power-grab or Mr Cameron will be a slave to the European Courts, Banks and Parliament always struggling to enact policy and law that they can deem acceptable or not from within the confines of lisbon

            Like

          • If we could join and expand NAFTA + AuzNz then I think most would leave the EU in a blink.

            Like

          • Chump says:

            This is where I am suddenly reminded of the fact that, of all the States within the USA, only one – Texas – made having the right to withdraw from the Union a condition of its entry.

            Like

          • Mr Ned says:

            Do try to keep up mr “I’ll have some of that”.

            You are correct in believing that most people would support a ‘this far and no further’ approach to remaining inside the EU, but we are, I am very sorry to write, well beyond that point now.

            The choice, as most people will realise far too late, is ALL the way into a complete integration into a completely alien and profoundly anti-democratic and wholly corrupt institution, OR all the way out.

            THAT is the choice we shall face at the next general election. Whilst being “bloody minded and difficult” worked for John Major, we had many vetoes back then and much more direct power to hold things up.

            Lisbon removes all that power. Cameron will be utterly impotent to resist the laws and changes that Lisbon will lead to.

            We will have no further say at all. Lisbon, being a self amending treaty, will mean that any future changes to ANY area of UK law, or jusrisdiction, could be forced upon us by a mere amendment of the treaty that could be approved by a simple majority of the Council of Ministers.

            If the French decide to force the UK to disband and abandon the Commonwealth? and they had a majority in the Council of Ministers, then Cameron would be powerless to resist that.

            That is why it matters NOT which EU puppet wins the general election. We will get the same laws from both!

            The only choice at the next election will be, do we go fully and unambiguously and wholly into a profoundly anti-democratic and alien system of Government? Or do we withdraw from the EU and return to our sovereign self determination?

            Like

      • 211
        The Baiters Master says:

        I am BM not the infamous MB!

        Parliament does not need the support of the people to do anything. Your mixing romantic notions of right and wrong with political reality. This govt has not had ” the people”(what ever that is) on it’s side for some time, yet it keeps on going.

        If The UK reneges on a Treaty that it’s govt has ratified we give reason for everyone else we have a treaty with to do the same.

        Like

  11. 23
    Merely A Passer By says:

    I’m sure we’ve had a previous Socialist regime which wanted to impose a single state of Europe overseen by an all powerful and populist Leader. All opposition to that idea wasn’t received to keenly by the elected Socialist government of the time either.

    Pabulum for the masses. When will we ever learn?

    Like

  12. 25
    Tom FD says:

    Does anyone really care what Ken Clarke thinks at this point? Since joining the shadow cabinet “I’ve never had so little media coverage”, he told Andrew Neil at conference. Which kind of demonstrates that the only time the media is interested in him is when they want to write a “Tory splits” story…

    Like

  13. 31
    Norman Tebbit says:

    Vote UKIP.

    You can not trust David Cameron.

    Like

    • 40
      rick says:

      I wish you were wrong.

      Like

    • 49
      Tom FD says:

      You cannot trust UKIP to turn up to the EU parliament to vote against the measures by which they are supposedly so outraged… it’s almost as if they think an even worse, more controlling and less accountable EU will assist their “let’s get out of here” campaign somehow… hmm…

      Like

    • 59
      Tapestry says:

      UKIP’s position is for an EU Referendum In or Out.
      That might well bring the wrong answer.
      Then what would UKIP do?
      Get real, lads.

      Like

      • 101
        BBC News 24 says:

        Now, Tapeestry, are you able to add up 2 and 2? If UKIP gained power it would only be because the majority of the UK populace wnated out of the EU – it’s what UKIP stand for.

        Or are you telling me the UK voter is so thick they would vote for UKIP and for Europe?

        Err… May be you’re right!!

        Like

      • 258
        Mr Ned says:

        Then they would resign and call a general election!

        the only reason UKIP exists at all, is because Cameron has not had the balls to sort this issue once and for all. He has not taken a principled stance on the EU and now that failure is coming home to roost.

        Cameron has the power to eliminate UKIP. Why does he not do so?

        The fact that he hasn’t tells me that he is more loyal to his unelected European puppet-masters, than to the electorate whom he wishes to attract.

        Like

  14. 37
    Tom FD says:

    Incidentally I don’t think any promise has been broken… Cameron has opposed the imposition of the treaty on the British people at every turn. The fact is when he made that statement it looked like there would be an election before there would be any chance of ratification. But purely because of Brown’s cowardice we are now in a position where it’s too late and any new incarnation of our relationship with the EU, after Lisbon, will have to be renegotiated from scratch because once complete the process can’t be reversed by the actions of one single country. Perhaps that relationship is “better off out”. One can only hope…

    Like

    • 91
      Budgie says:

      Correct, except that we cannot just up and renegotiate anymore, after Lisbon. The UK become merely a constituent part of the new EU state, we cease to be legally an independent nation.

      Not all the other members would be willing to re-negotiate anyway, so all we could do is trip along to Brussels and ask ‘pretty please may we withdraw’ from the EU. Can you see the europhiles or even the Tories agreeing to that?

      Like

      • 170
        lisbon referendum. no, if's but's or maybes says:

        a counsel of despair and defeatism

        a referendum would make that pretty please sound rather deafening and impossible to ignore as it would carry the weight of tens of millions of Britons with one clear democratic voice

        Like

      • 179
        Dracula says:

        The Treaty is not worth the paper it’s written on. It is unenforceable. The worst that could happen would be a temporary ban on imports from the UK, and that would have to be given up sooner rather than later because it would cut both ways. The EU has expanded far too widely and rapidly and the slightest pressure will see it collapsing in on itself. There could be the most hellish mess in the event of any unpleasantness. I would bet the castle that the UK could renegotiate its membership into a Free Trade agreement with very little difficulty.

        Like

  15. 38
    Anonymous says:

    No referendum, no vote.

    Like

    • 47
      rick says:

      This is the simple rule, irreducibly reduced.

      Like

    • 50
      Onan the Barbarian says:

      A campaign like that might work.

      The Downing Street petition site might be a good starting point…

      Like

    • 260
      Mr Ned says:

      “No referendum, No vote!”

      Nice catchy slogan that.

      Like

      • 261
        Mr Ned says:

        Except that it I will be voting. And unless I can also vote in a referendum on the EU, I shall be using the election AS my referendum!

        I expect that millions of others may do exactly the same.

        Especially as we will probably be under the rule of an unelected president by then.

        It will be my only chance to vote against this dictator!

        Like

  16. 44
    Spido says:

    NHS + ROYAL MAIL PRIVATISED ?

    Is THAT what you REALLY want if you vote tory?…

    Give the independents or UKIP or the Greens a chance instead, eh?!

    Like

    • 62
      The Yorkshire Ripper says:

      And how will UKIP fix the NHS and a national delivery carrier that simply can’t go on being the size it is? They’re only axe is the one to stick in the neck of anything or anyone who want’s UK to integrate more with Europe. Don’t be silly, they’re just for show and will never be a major force.

      Let’s face some facts – if we want to fuck off out of Europe, there’s nothing stopping us. A few busted trade deals, outrage from a number of nations that think they all that but just piss in the wind. Fuck them. The two best countries to live in Europe are Denmark and Switzerland – notice what they’ve both got in common? Tories and Liebore are both to blame for the state the Royal Mail is in but we are where we are. It’s too big, it’s archaic and they’re struggling to do a full days work as they like to finish early – so now they just don’t bother. NHS privatised? Doubt it mate.

      Like

      • 68
        Spido says:

        Be fair – UKIP is a small new party – if your wonderful tories had not been such fuckwits they would never have got people so angry that they needed to form themselvces into UKIP in the first place. Ever heard of democracy?

        Like

        • 86
          The Yorkshire Ripper says:

          It’s not about fair, it’s about reality. All a major party needs to do is take minority groups’ salient points and they’ll have their votes. Parties should stop fucking about with the BNP and just have a solid immigration policy like Australia. That puts Nick and his mates out of business.

          As for UKIP, if CMD actually did take the country up on the referendum, UKIP go pop. UKIP don’t have any other policies – once they get their ‘in or out’ vote for Europe they’re a busted flush.

          Like

          • Dracula says:

            That’s what they want: once out, UKIP’s job is done and its MPs will co-operate with the party whose policies most closely match its own, and its voters understand that. Voting UKIP is a means to an end, not a new religion.

            Like

      • 98
        Jimmy says:

        Guido and Cole will run the postal service. The strike will end but the stamps will be 75 quid.

        Like

      • 165
        I'll have some of that says:

        Err – I think you mean Norway not Denmark. Norway’s got the oil money. We’ve pissed it up against the wall.

        Like

    • 190

      YES FUCKING PLEASE

      Mail on time, no subsidy of where people want to live, and medical care, not waiting for bureaucrat to hand out a ration of treatment,

      ROYAL MAIL = DISASTER
      NHS = NATIONAL DEATH SERVICE

      I’d denationalise both in a flash, there two of the worst things about the U.K.

      http://rantburg.com/Pix/HEALTHCARE-1948.jpg

      Like

  17. 45
    pissed off voter says:

    Help me out here please. As far as I can remember several European countries held a referendum on the EU constitution and it was rejected by the majority of those countries. The name was then changed fron EU constitution to EU treaty, a couple of commas were added and only Ireland was allowed a referendum in which they rejected this ‘treaty’. A second referendum was ordered in Ireland because they gave the ‘wrong answer’ first time round.

    And now we are in a situation where 27 individuals will, without mandate from their people, determine the political future of Europe – and maintain a parliament of thieves in the mould of Westminster.

    Please tell me if I have got any of this wrong.

    Like

    • 53
      Onan the Barbarian says:

      Fair summary, I thought

      Like

    • 54
      Tom FD says:

      Yeah, it’s not the political future of Europe they’ve determined, it’s the political future of their 27 individual nation states that they’re demolishing brick by brick…

      Like

    • 65
      The Yorkshire Ripper says:

      Correct. It’s complete toss. One size fits all never works anywhere, in business, in government or in bed. The Dark Lord can attest to all three….

      Like

    • 66
      rick says:

      Sorry, I cannot help you out here – I simply can’t fault your analysis. But as you say there must be something we are not seeing – so many clever people being involved an’all. Hold on, I’ll give Dave a ring……………….

      Like

    • 67
      Davy says:

      You are correct WE are all Doomed the noo, don’t panic Jones. get Mainwaring, Silly boy and all that

      Like

    • 262
      Mr Ned says:

      you got the following wrong,

      “and maintain a parliament of thieves in the mould of Westminster. ”

      The EU will be an order of magnitude worse than Westminster, far more corrupt and far less democratic.

      Like

  18. 58
    Tapestry says:

    UKIP’s position is for an EU Referendum In or Out.
    That might well bring the wrong answer.
    Then what will UKIP do?
    Get real, lads.

    Like

  19. 60
    Moderator says:

    Good blog this evening,No insults and little bad language well done all

    Like

  20. 61
    Spido says:

    Scotland says Vote UKIP

    Like

  21. 70
    thedarknight says:

    This is the best plan. There is no need for a referendum with all the uncertainty it may bring. The Conservatives will be elected as a sceptic party and will get some powers back. That will a) put an end to the idea that euro-integration is an inevitable, unstoppable policy, and b) set a precedent for future power grabs. Meanwhile, a law can be passed requiring any further transfer of powers to have to go through a referendum. This is the beginning of the end game – as long as what Hague and Cameron get is substantial, ie an end to the social chapter, an end to the EAWs, an end to the euro-defence and foreign policy.

    Like

    • 159

      If you’re not on the payroll, you should be.

      Like

    • 180
      Euro-Dave says:

      There is no uncertainty in a referendum on Lisbon
      It will get voted down with a vengeance

      And unless Lisbon is removed any talk of renegotition any European powers is simply empty rhetoric
      Any 1 of 27 countries object and that renegotiation is over there and then
      negotiation over. we lose

      Lisbon still hasn’t been ratified quite yet , has been some 8 years in the making and has undreamed of power within it
      So what this waffle about imaginary future treaties is supposed to prove god only knows but it is a colossal made up irrelevance
      There is no future treaty or likely to be for Camerons first Parliament
      Lisbon is it and what matters most

      Like

    • 268
      Mr Ned says:

      “Meanwhile, a law can be passed requiring any further transfer of powers to have to go through a referendum.”

      What a load of bollocks!

      You either are ignorant of, or are lying about, the fact that Lisbon is self amending, so there will be no more referendums.

      The WHOLE POINT of the Lisbon Reform Treaty is to “speed up reform” and “stream-line decision making” In other words, expedited integration without that interfering “electorate” getting in the way and slowing it all down.

      When Lisbon becomes law, the speed with which any last semblance of soveriegnty will be snatched will be sickeningly breath-taking and now that the people are never to be consulted ever again, nothing will stop the nation hating extremists from letting rip with a decade of pent-up frustration that their pet-dictatorship has been stymied for so long!

      Like

  22. 71
    Jon says:

    If I don’t get my referendum I’ll be voting for a party which will give me one…..UKIP.

    Like

    • 78
      Davy says:

      No chance, unfortunately another wasted vote

      Like

      • 248
        Addanc says:

        No vote is wasted, if enough votes transfer from Tory to UKIP then Liebour may not be out of the game.

        Like

        • 269
          Mr Ned says:

          Not one tory, or labour supporter needs to change to UKIP, NONE!

          UKIP should actively and very aggressively chase the 40% who did not vote because they thought that they were part of an irrelevant minority.

          22% of the electorate gave labour a 66 seat majority, whilst 40% did not vote at all.

          Labour support has slumped since then, and the tories are not very much more popular.

          UKIP needs to go after these non-voters and help them realise that they have more power today, than tory and labour supporters COMBINED!

          Then they should reach out to patriotic voters of all colours with a simple guarantee. Vote for us to win and we will sit for one year to return self determination to the UK electorate, we will create a simple constitution and updated Bill of rights and return FULL democratic accountability and sovereignty to Parliament.

          Once that task is done, then we will call another general election, a MEANINGFUL one, whereby the British people will elect, for the first time in decades, the people who will create ALL the UK’s laws, based on a full democratic accountability.

          Alternatively, you can stay home and not vote, or vote for a mainstream candidate that will see us all enslaved by a foreign dictatorship and then your voice will be ignored for evermore!

          This is your LAST chance to make YOUR voice heard and for it to make a real difference

          SIMPLE CHOICE PEOPLES!

          Like

    • 80
      pissed off voter says:

      Mandy will be happy to give you one

      Like

  23. 85
  24. 100
    Ratsniffer says:

    The problem with breaking promises right now is that the public is already sick and tired of bullshit after more than a decade of nulabour spin and lies. They were hoping for a clean sweep, a new administration which would bring back some honesty and principle into politics. What do we get instead? More of the same old bullshit. Heir to Blair indeed…..

    It’s not looking good.

    Like

    • 113
      The Scratcher of Dicks says:

      It doesn’t matter. His words where ‘if’ it’s not ratified by the time he’s in power, which he won’t be. He already knew this when he said it knowing that Snotty would go the distance as he’s the power-grabbing, festering lunatic Hoon that he is. There was never any danger of it happening. Bliar did it as well knowing full well the original deal when it was the EU Constitution would get roundly binned.

      The real questions are why has no one asked shit-face Milliband (Foreign Secretary) why he says one thing but believes another. Complete and utter irony of his family living on occupied land in Israel – then he tries to go on and get ‘groomed’ for the EU Foreign ministers job. His attitude is in line with many now in (or have been) in positions of power in Labour – JacqBoots (needs to be jailed – she has broken so many laws and no one can be bothered), Straw (completely inept at handling Nazis), Darling (feeble), Snotty (completely dillusional) – the list goes on and on and on. They haven’t been fit to govern for nearly two years this lot. Oh well, it happened on their watch…..

      Like

      • 207
        The Ghost of Christmas Past says:

        If you read guidos little davey quote from 2007, youll see theres no such precondition included.

        That came later with baldy bastard hague and his forked tongue when it suddenly dawned on them that gordo wasnt going to call an election and theyd get lumbered with a tough choice- piss the voters off or er piss the voters off some more.

        I want my say. Referendum, NOW!

        Like

  25. 103
    AJ says:

    This pales into relative insignificance compared to Neathergate. Being invaded by milions of incompatible aliens, through the covert policies of the Labour fifth column, is more serious than anything the Euro bureaucrats can throw at us.

    Like

    • 105
      Jimmy says:

      Look out behind you! Darkies!

      Like

    • 162
      Anonymous says:

      nobody give a fuck you nutter

      Like

      • 195
        albacore says:

        Two prongs of the same fork, AJ.
        EU = England split into regions and destroyed as a single political entity.
        Unrestricted immigration = England redefined as the obsolete geographical description of part of a small group of islands without a recognised indigenous population.

        Like

        • 241
          English Heretic says:

          Exactly, so how do we get out of this mess?

          Call me Dave won’t go the Lisbon referendum route and the English EU regions are all there ready to go – even with the NE rejection of theirs in a referendum!

          Like

          • Mr Ned says:

            The only way out, is to use the general election as our referendum.

            Dave should know by now how low the trust in MP’s is, so offering promises is utterly meaningless.

            The only thing to do is to vote for a party, or candidate who WILL support getting us out of the EU altogether!

            Like

          • Mr Ned says:

            If they will not keep their promise, then WE must keep it for them.

            The election will be the referendum on the EU!

            Like

          • Anonymous says:

            You don’t… well not without killing the perps.

            Like

  26. 117
    Ever Vigilant says:

    Cameron does have a dilemma but he can solve it by promising a post ratification referendum in order to demonstrate the will of the British people .
    If he does so it will scupper UKIP (which unfortunately is only a one trick pony ) and demonstrate his resolve to keep faith with the electorate .

    It will also guarantee him an election victory of greater magnitude than already predicted .

    Like

    • 140
      Inspector Cyril Blake says:

      post-ratification referendum would be pointless, a meaningless and expensive gesture; the treaty signs away the sovereignty of Parliament to the EU and leaves, effectively, with about as much independence from Brussels/Strasbourg as the Isle of Wight has from Westminster, i.e. not very much. The treaty can’t be re-negotiated, although we could unilaterally pull out of the EU altogether, which I dearly wish that we could, but no career politico would, or could, commit themselves to that. We have been handed a fait accompli, and nothign that we say or do will stop the path that we’ve been unwillingly and deceitfully all been sent down.

      If any serious politician had the balls to say “I will give you a referendum on being in or out of Europe and I will abide by the decision, unilaterally withdrawing from the EU if that is the express wish of the people” then i would vote for him; meantime back in the real world, we’re going to have to live with it, much to my chagrin, but I’m a chinaman’s monkey if i’m going to have to put up with that lying smug git B.Liar and his three-dick gob hag of a wife lording it over us all.

      Like

      • 149
        Ever Vigilant says:

        I am as anti EU as you appear to be but matters will have to be dealt with one step at a time . The first step will have to be measuring British opinion not merely asserting it by opinion poll . If a referendum shows that the majority are against further integration then leaving is the only option but if our side lost the referendum then we are stuffed .

        Like

        • 275
          Mr Ned says:

          If the people voted in a referendum to stay in the EU and accept it’s laws and newly crated alien customs, then I, as a Euro realist and supporter and believer of democracy, would accept the settled will of the people. I would then regretfully leave the my home to live elsewhere.

          All I really want is to be left alone by the state, to get on with my lawful life in the country I was born in, under the same legal framework and sovereignty.

          I am facing having to live in what increasingly feels like a foreign country, with an alien and unjust justice system, under a profoundly anti-democratic governance, and I haven’t left the town of my Berth.

          Either way, whatever the outcome. WE must be given OUR SAY!

          Like

      • 152
        EU pigs need culling says:

        the referendum would at the very least give a British Prime Minister a negotiating point of strength and not merely the small marginalised irrelevant euro-grouping that Cameron has opted for

        that small group could sadly achieve nothing negotiating anything by themselves

        from that position of strength it is not without the bounds of possiblity that lisbon could be repealed as the EU would be far less likely to alienate itself against a British public that had spoken clearly on the issue

        if the EU refused complete withdrawall would be almost a certainty and justified

        Like

        • 264
          Throbber says:

          It’s easy – have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. If the result is a no, declare Browns signature of it illegitimate. What is the rest of the EU going to do? Every time they attempt to impose any sanction according to the treaty, simply ignore it and restate it’s illegitimacy.
          Should any punitive action be taken against us, simply withhold all our contributions to the EU.
          We simply refuse to recognise their authority.
          There is nothing they can do against that.

          Like

          • The Ghost of Christmas Past says:

            We should not be making any contributions to a pack of unelected bastards who are accountable to no one!

            No taxation without representation!

            The billions that get spunked up the eu toilet wall by successive governments- just think what that money could have accomplished if it had been even donated to families in this country?

            But no cant be having that can we?
            Nope, more for us, less for you.
            Work you bastards, work til you drop so we can leech off you and when you give your last gasp, we’ll leech somemore off you, thats the cry of eu fucktard politicos and westminster troughers.

            Well listen up.
            Its gonna change.
            Either it gets properly sorted or very many people are going to go on a rampage thatll make the poll tax riots look like a pleasant day out in the park.

            Finally, cut off all eu donations, cut off all aid to foreign countries and look after the hard up people of this country first.

            You cant help others if you cant help your fucking self.

            Like

          • Mr Ned says:

            Class it as a frustrated contract, or as a contract agreed without consent from all parties and therefore void.

            Like

      • 328
        Archie says:

        Defeatist poppycock! See my earlier.

        Like

  27. 131
    Snuggles says:

    Did we expect anything different from Call Me Dave? After the second Irish referendum this was to be expected!

    Like

  28. 134
    Dan Hannanas says:

    Don’t worry Dave has something up his sleeve!

    oh.. right.. it was to make me look like a stupid gullible cun’t

    Like

  29. 139
    a new Catchphrase is born says:

    I’m the King of the Moon and have a magical kingdom made of space cheese
    of course I’m not lying! I give you my cast-iron guarantee

    Like

  30. 151
    CALL ME CYNICAL BUT says:

    Show you’ve got balls Cameron ,show us that you are not a Liar show us You are better than him ! then ,just then i might vote for you
    If you dont then you are as big a liar as the mental one !

    Like

    • 280
      Mr Ned says:

      There is NO WAY that Dave should even TRY to pretend that mere words are enough.

      He must know how little trust there is in politicians today. So he must SHOW that he is serious and let us know exactly, and in detail, what he plans to do about saving our nation from complete annihilation.

      So far, the “No referendum for us, no vote for the tories” seems the only logical choice!

      It seems utterly pointless to me to have to choose between voting for a blue Euro-puppet or a red EU puppet or a yellow EU puppet.

      After all, Lisbon turns them all into mere puppets!

      Like

  31. 155
    objet petit a says:

    Should we be in Europe at all – that’s the real question. Surely we can have trade agreements and such without political union?

    * * *

    http://little-object-a.blogspot.com/

    Like

  32. 156
    Disco Biscuit says:

    Looks like the reactionary right-wing nutjobs are going to use this to bash him over the head.

    Anyone heard from the Tombstone Group yet?

    Like

    • 198
      albacore says:

      Wyatt, Virgil and Doc? They’d have had Cowperson Cameron doing his spinning on the end of a rope just for being such a sugarfoot.

      Like

  33. 157
    Disco Biscuit says:

    If you write “clint” in capitals, you can get round the hoon rule :)

    Like

  34. 168
    Rebecca Adlington's spoon polisher says:

    The lying Eton educated spineless twat.

    I’ll be voting UKIP . . . and so will Rebecca’s other spoon polishers.

    Like

  35. 173
    aswinsterstale says:

    There is no way the british will be given any vote of europe. It was always a cop out to have a vote only if the treaty wasn’t ratified, they knew it would be. None of them are to be trusted on europe.
    In future any treaty will carry word semantics, defining it just outside any criterea for a vote despite what laws they pass.
    For all zanulabor broken promises, it has always been the tories who have dug us deeper into this pit.
    Any elementary modern history lesson always shows that europe has always been a carve up, and the peoples have never ever had a say in any of it.
    cameroon did make the commitment, and of his own free will, and he will break it, again of his own free will, just like we all knew he would

    Like

    • 278
      The Ghost of Christmas Past says:

      There is no “britain” anymore…bliar devolved power to the scots and welsh so we’re on our own in merry own ENGLAND.

      Like

    • 281
      Mr Ned says:

      Yes we will.

      If they do not keep their referendum promise, then WE must keep it for them and use the general election AS our referendum. It is less than perfect, BUT it is the ONLY option that these lying, betraying bastards have left open for us!

      Like

  36. 175
    CALL ME CYNICAL BUT says:

    Right : If Cameron Gives The “British People A Referendum On Lisbon ! And Say WE Reject It 3 To 1 What Happens Then ? We Are a Sovereign State And I Cant See The Likes Of America Standing Bye And watching Its Strongest Allie Be Taken Over By A Few Un Elected Would Be Dictators !

    Like

  37. 178
    EUBanana says:

    Well, thats it then, I’m voting UKIP in my marginal-ish Labour/Tory seat, and I hope enough others do for Cameron’s dream of power to be ruined.

    Gordon getting in again is not necessarily such a bad thing, he shit the bed, he and his vile party can clear up the mess.

    Like

    • 200
      Down with Brown! says:

      No they will just create even more shit in your bed.

      Like

    • 266
      Throbber says:

      There will be no bed left, just shit.

      Like

    • 285
      Mr Ned says:

      It won’t make any difference POST Lisbon if it is a tory puppet or labour puppet.

      THEY ARE BOTH COMMITTING TREASON!

      UNLESS we get the referendum, I will be voting for the candidate that promises me that they will work to get us OUT of the profoundly anti-democratic, corrupt EU!

      O/T but the “run off” election in Afghanistan has been cancelled.

      It is time we withdrew ALL of our troops from that war. YES it started 100% legally and for the right reasons, supported by the EU, the UN, NATO.

      But NOW? We are sacrificing our troops to defend a corrupt, drug-dealing, pro-rape, woman hating dictatorship.

      Where is mad Hattie Harman on all this? Why does she defend our troops being killed to prop up a dictatorship that has legalised RAPE?

      Get our troops out NOW, OR tell them to overthrow that vile, woman hating corrupt regime that peddles Heroin and Opium all over the world!

      Like

  38. 194
    The Beast of Clerkenwell says:

    Vote Labour if only to see McMental really go off his trolley big time.
    The country is nearly destroyed so we might as well go the whole hog then start again after invading Europe with our American chums and killing anything that moves.

    Like

  39. 196
    west country farmer says:

    seems to me that we are doomed

    I’m going to look in the papers for a small island I can buy and move there away from all of this, grow my own veg and build a house, fuck them all coz there’s no one to trust and no one to represent me – they’re all jus self serving bastards

    Like

  40. 197
    Anonymous says:

    I’m sorry but you should have paid extra for an extended guarantee, since it is over a year since the cast iron guaratee was issued with the goods bought, there is nothing we can do for you.

    Like

  41. 199
    Down with Brown! says:

    Cameron must offer a referendum in his manifesto or risk splitting his party before the election. If Conservatives stand against Conservatives then Labour will get back in………………

    The wording of the referrendum could be something like the “British people demand the European Union to return the treaty-making powers set out in the Lisbon Treaty.” The key is to have a referrencdum but one where 99% of Tories will be campaigning on the same side.

    Like

    • 286
      Mr Ned says:

      That would be admirable, BUT is still pissing into a hurricane.

      The “this far and no further” boat sails on the tide of the final signature and ratification of the Lisbon Reform Treaty.

      From then on, the only choice will be between ALL the way in, total and complete acquiescence to integration on ALL laws, taxes, treaties, currencies, finance and governance from a corrupt and unelected oligarchy under an unelected President, AKA dictatorship.

      OR,

      All the way out, to a sovereign nation with self determination and the power to set OUR OWN LAWS, to suit the people of THIS country.

      That will be the choice at the next election.

      WHICH side will Cameron be on?

      Like

  42. 201
    Anotheranonymous says:

    Using foul language will not help any situation. Budgie at 74 may well by right. However, there are two possible options. There is a general election next year. It is up to the public (and for you to get the message across) to vote into what ever power may be left, a Party that will take this Country out of the EU. WHY WOULD ANY PERSON WANT TO VOTE IN ANYONE THAT WANTS TO REMAIN IN THIS EUROPEAN UNION WHEN THEY WANT OUT? ALL THREE MAJOR PARTIES WANT TO REMAIN IN THE EU. The other option, this Government cannot continue to give our money to the EU if no one is paying anything in?

    Like

  43. 204
    Bob says:

    It is nice to think that a referendum can be held on the Lisbon Treaty

    However, a duly-ratified Treaty is binding unless there is a “let out” clause, which, to my knowledge, Lisbon does not have…

    That is the problem..

    So the choice facing UK electors is the following :

    Even if a referendum held ex post facto produces a majority against the Lisbon Treaty, it has not legal effect..A UK government could “opt out” (on unclear legal grounds) but that would probablymean lleving the EU…and becoming a member of the European Economic Area like Switzerl.

    Like

    • 206
      Bob says:

      like Switzerland, Norway etc – virtually unavoidable for a whole load of reasons…

      That would seem to be the real choice facing Dave the Rave even if he had the balls to order a referendum…

      It would probably not be a bad solution…though would undoubtedly lead to les UK influence in the world…But UK influence in the worlds despite the hallucinations of Millitwat is pretty limited anyway…and when the full effect of Brown’s Bust is felt will decline further…

      Like

      • 287
        Mr Ned says:

        Labour have already pissed away what shrinking influence we had. We will have NO British influence globally AT ALL, once Lisbon becomes OUR law creating framework. The EU will have taken ALL of it.

        Better to have a small amount of global influence left as an independent, sovereign, nuclear armed, permanent member of the Security Council, member of NATO and head of the Commonwealth, than to have NONE AT ALL as a collection of separate regions who are utterly subservient to the EU!

        At least we can work to rebuild under the former sovereign state, under the EU we are finished!

        Like

  44. 209
    marcus aurelius says:

    Dave, I’m sure your trolls are reading this.

    If you wriggle out of a referendum we will vote for any party that will give us one, even if it means years more McMental and his gang of thieves.

    Like

  45. 210
    Oi Cameron You Spineless Chit says:

    give me my fking referendum or my vote will go to UKIP.

    Like

    • 215
      Anonymous says:

      UKIP will never amount to anything much. All they can do is weaken the Tory vote here and there to the benefit of pro Europe forces. A rare ray of sunshine in the bunker.

      Accept the reality and move on. UKIP is full of angry middle aged men heading for early coronary action.

      If you want to get elected you have have a grip on reality. All these pure anti Europe types, will you ever be faced with being in charge? No you won’t.

      Ps: Loving the sprinkling of Labour trolls pretending to be angry Eurosceptics.

      Like

      • 239
        righty right wing (mrs) says:

        The Conservative Party has no right to expect Conservatives like me to vote for them whilst DC cannot keep his promises on Europe.

        If there is no place for Eurosceptics in the Conservative Party then I may as well make the move to UKIP a permanent one.

        The politics of fear spread by the Conservative Party into scaring Conservative voters away from UKIP is typical New Labour-esque tactics – & they will not work.

        If the Conservatives want my vote at the next GE then I demand that DC keep his “cast iron guarantee” on Lisbon.

        Like

  46. 214
    Great Granddad says:

    Come on Guido, we need you.

    Please organize a referendum because we need it right now, before ratification and before the election.

    Question: “Do you want any ratification of the Lisbon Treaty by this government to be declared void by the next government, pending a national referendum?”

    As I don’t qualify on residential considerations, I promise not to vote myself despite my all encompassing interest.

    Like

  47. 221
    Dan Taylor says:

    >> Time to privatise the BBC! Have a glance at their latest cock-up!!!!!

    http://ddtaylor88.wordpress.com/2009/11/01/privatise-the-beeb/

    Like

  48. 224
    McGroom says:

    It seems a little premature to witter on about Conservative policy on the Lisbon Treaty.

    The conservatives are not in power yet.

    Once we have an election, and assuming the conservatives form the next government, then we can have a debate about Europe and whether the Lisbon Treaty has been ratified.

    If all that comes to pass, Dave can either give us a referendum on Lisbon (if Klaus has managed to hold out), or he can give us a referendum on whether we want to be in the United States of Europe or not seeing as the EU remaining just a trading bloc rather than political union is finished.

    Getting caught up in a Milliband style critique of Dave breaking promises that he has no power to influence and will deal with the situation when he is able to do so is futile.

    Tim Montgomerie should focus on the things that can currently be changed rather than harping on and causing damage when there is nothing Dave can do about it now and he’ll deal with the situation as he finds it when he can.

    Like

    • 240
      righty right wing (mrs) says:

      So vote for DC and all will become clear on Lisbon?

      Nonsense.

      A “cast iron guarantee” from a Conservative leader should be just that.

      Like

      • 251
        McGroom says:

        But a cast iron guarantee of what? A vote on whether to join the Lisbon Treaty after it has been (most likely) ratified?????

        The only only thing he can offer at the moment is a referendum on Europe.

        It would be political suicide to open a can of worms by promising, right now, to ask the British electorate whether they want to be in or out of Europe.

        If you don’t like that “wait and see” option, vote for someone else – simples

        Like

        • 257
          1381 says:

          Why is a referendum – in or out – political suicide?
          I would call it democracy.

          Like

          • McGroom says:

            For the conservatives to promise a referendum on Europe now opens up the party to Labour party attack dogs of hating Europe, which is not necessarily their position.

            Cameron should therefore keep his counsel until it becomes clear what the Lisbon Treaty position will be after the election and formulate policy on what to do then.

            It is not reasonable to promise anything now, while exactly what can be done post election is not known.

            Like

          • Mr Ned says:

            McGroom, we are all going to see what the Lisbon position is WELL BEFORE the election. We will know how utterly impotent any single political leader will be and how we will have an avalanche of legislation forced upon us that will seek to integrate further ALL of our institutions.

            Cameron CAN make clear before the election that he takes a position in favour of defending this Sovereign Isle. OR he can pontificate endlessly and fiddle whilst Rome burns our last traces of being an independent sovereign Isle.

            It is utterly preposterous to even suggest, or even float the idea of suggesting, that we TRUST him with a wait and see on the very essence and nature and reality of our very sovereignty!

            How many votes do you think Cameron will give to UKIP with a policy of “Trust me, I am a politician”?

            Cameron has the power to eliminate UKIP as a political threat and guarantee a massive majority in one simple swift move.

            He should sign a legal declaration, a formal and legally binding notice of intent, promising to the British Electorate to grant the British a say on the Lisbon treaty in a referendum (as HE claims we were promised by ALL parties) and to abide by the results.

            The British people being well aware that the treaty cannot be re-negotiated, will know that to vote NO will mean that the tories must then ether (a) begin the process to withdraw from the EU, or (B) resign and call a fresh general election. And they must also be made aware that to vote YES would be to vote to integrate ourselves irreversibly within the EU and to accept all future amendments. (not that we will have a say)

            It is NOT the British public’s fault that we are at the point of Actually having to seriously consider the nuclear option of complete withdrawal.

            But it was NOT the BRITISH public that betrayed this country. Had we been granted a say MUCH earlier, then the Lisbon Treaty COULD have been re-negotiated to become an instrument that could have meant we stay IN the EU as independent, sovereign nation, co-operating and contributing positively.

            How can we ever EVER trust that institution again after this level of betrayal and anti-democratic shenanigans?

            Cameron has a choice. Sign a lawfully binding notice of intent to hold a referendum, or watch a coalition of labour and the liberals gleefully take us even further into the EU. I mean, at least they believe in and fully support their treason! And I will have had my vote to vote firmly AGAINST the EU, by voting UKIP.

            As things stand, I cannot vote against the EU, or against the Lisbon treaty, by voting conservative. I can only vote to piss into a hurricane by that vote.

            Like

    • 309
      Anonymous says:

      224 Pathetic.
      Just excuses. We are not wittering. We demand what was promised.

      Like

  49. 242
    Halloween and Economics says:

    Neat, seasonal article…how Halloween has a ‘socialist tenor’ With a serious message, lightheartedly put.

    http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article14683.html

    Like

  50. 243
    Anne says:

    It amazes me that you along with others are not putting the facts across – Cameron said no Treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum – in other words if it has already been ratified we CANNOT have a referendum we can only have an opinion poll.

    Like

    • 301
      Anonymous says:

      In other words the Tories are traitors. We have had enough of liars.
      You seem to think a piece of paper is important. Another Tory idiot made that mistake sixty years ago.

      Like

  51. 250
    Senor Frizby says:

    But if the treaty has been ratified, what is the point in the referendum? It will rouse us up into a frenzy of “no” voting that will be utterly meaningless because the deal will have been done. It should be the the people in the Labour party who are withholding the decision form the British electorate that are the target of our ire. Brown seems to be getting off lightly for consistently denying us any form of democracy.

    Really can’t see the point in a vote after the bloody thing has been ratified.

    Like

    • 256
      1381 says:

      Thank God other Brits had a bit more gumption than your quitting yellow hide.
      So Hitler took most of Europe. So Britain should have just surrendered without a fight. What was done was done. The Germans over run Europe. We are next. Just lay down your guns and don’t fight.
      What an insult to all those Brits who have fought for our independence and sovereignty.
      I don’t like Farage – I saw what was done to Michael Holmes but if thats my only choice so be it.
      We need to fight the fourth reich just as we fought the third.
      We could give UKIP the balance of power.
      My goodness I just trust they select the right leader. Our country’s future depends on it.

      Like

    • 283
      Anonymous says:

      Thank you Jack Straw’s dad.

      Like

    • 291
      Nick says:

      Simple – just tell them to go fuck themselves.

      Like

    • 293
      Nick says:

      But ratified why whom? An unelected toss-pot who didn’t even have the bollocks to be photographed with the rest of the Euopean free-loading cun*ts. Anything Brown signed pretending to be PM is invalid.

      Like

  52. 252
    I hate new Labour says:

    Well. that’s cost the Tories my vote.

    I would have had more respect if CMD had just said ‘no referendum’ from the start.

    He looks more and more like Blair mk 2 every day.

    Like

  53. 253
    The Cameroons program says:

    CLS

    RUN 10

    10 Blair2..exe

    Like

  54. 284
    A Silent Emission of Bowel Gas says:

    Cameron’s almost as far up the fundament of the EU as Heath, Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown.

    He will NEVER agree to leave the EU.

    He will NEVER agree to EU law ceasing to supersede UK law.

    He will NEVER agree to change our client status and the steady progress toward federalisation.

    When he says he won’t let the matter rest, he means he’ll make a speech and give one of his cast iron guarantees that he’ll be very cross with the Council of Ministers unless they let him repatriate the power to bend bananas.

    You think Brown is piss weak on Europe?

    Ha!

    Like

  55. 289
    Nick says:

    When Cameron is slumped over his drink the morning after he has lost the election , I hope he looks back on this as the final fuckup that diluted the Tory vote.
    UKIP here I come.

    Like

  56. 311
    Not long till labour gone says:

    Does Cameron not realise that not pulling us out of the EU could cost him the election?

    Would hate to see Labour get back in due to votes being evenly spread between the Torys, the UKIP and the B & P.

    Like

  57. 312
    Elliot Montague says:

    Treachery is the only word for the limp wristed leadership of the Conservative Party. UKIP already have my vote!

    Like

  58. 315
    Max says:

    Have I been in a time warp, Guido? I seem to recall that the tory policy for some time now (and certainly clarified well before this year’s conference season) was always that:

    a) A referendum on Lisbon would ONLY ever occur if by the time the tories got in (indeed it was always qualified by an “if the tories got in”) Lisbon had not yet been ratified.

    b) That they would not reveal their Plan B until after the ratification of Lisbon because they could not present policy on the back of a speculation that ratification would occur.

    (Have I gone mad again; was it ratified whilst I was offline over the weekend?)

    c) A hint that Plan B would involve going back to the EUSSR to discuss the UK’s position having been given a clear mandate by the people of the UK to do so (ie by being elected).

    None of the above is new or different, indeed I have been repeating it for weeks now on this blog; well before the weekend’s renewed orgy of “Dave’s let us down” (by sticking to the policy he said he would but oddly we want to somehow ignore all of a sudden this weekend).

    By a combination of out of context quotes, some oddball reporting and the (understandable but it’s not news) seething anger of others such as Dan The Han we seem to be in a perverse voodoo world where all of the above is forgotten or strangely misunderstood, the actual promise of the only party who could promise (ZaNuLab) ignored and the saviours purported to be UKIP.

    UKIP FFS!

    Now I am fairly sure I have not entered into a strange parallel universe (unless as per Professor Nutt I am doing my brain cells more harm with the old red vino than by indulging in similarly copious quantities of skunk and ecstacy) and so must conclude that Reds are Under Our Beds.

    LieBore’s virtual sole remaining strategy for clinging on to power in 2010 (ignoring postal votes and other direct and dangerous scams) is to split the tory vote by promoting UKIP.

    And this blog appears to be rife with numerous trolls doing it very well it appears! (I notice that the usual suspects such as the Mastur Bator apparently felt no need to comment much on this thread as “themselves” today).

    Any chance of a bit more sanity (or at least circumspection) please? I have come to the conclusion that Ivor and others professing “this is a time to pick up a rifle and go over the top to be shot as a matter of some certainty but so what” are starting to come close to spouting Alastair Campbell style constructs. The language is getting creepy guys…what with Remembrance Day and all that too.

    Do we really want to be shot up in No Man’s Land wrapped in the UKIP flag having gained not one inch on the map whilst the lunatics this would most benefit (ZNL) retain power back home for another agonising few years and continue to destroy what we say we value?

    Jeez, if you want the war analogies then wasn’t it Churchill who said it was better to retreat and fight another day than die for no purpose? (1942).

    Like

    • 316
      1381 says:

      Two wrongs don’t make a right.
      Its increasingly clear that Shameron was only too damn truthful – one of the few times in my view – when he (HE) claimed to be heir to Blair.
      The Tories have sold us out to Europe from Heath, may he rot in hell, through Thatcher, through Major. Shameron is/will do the same.
      Treason just as great as Labours.
      The Tories are NEVER going to leave the EU and give us back our sovereignty, independence and in fact dignity not to mention fish.
      They have sold out to the puppeteers.
      The ‘lib/lab/con’ is there to clearly see and only the propagandists of any of these three identical political scams can whitter away a load of garbage posing as comment – warning us how not voting for one of the hydra will mean another of the hydra will win.
      It doesn’t matter!!!
      They are all the Bl… same.
      We have been blatantly conned over and over.
      I would hope that the BNP and UKIP, for the sake of the future of our country, could reach an agreement to stand candidates where they are best placed to win, instead of splitting the vote.
      I refuse to be blackmailed into voting for one pack of traitors because the present pack have sold us out. Treasonous greedy vermin – the lot.
      They Have all!! ALL!! sold us out.
      Got it!

      Like

    • 317
      1381 says:

      Two wrongs don’t make a right.
      Its increasingly clear that Shameron was only too damn truthful – one of the few times in my view – when he (HE) claimed to be heir to Blair.
      The Tories have sold us out to Europe from Heath, may he rot in hell, through Thatcher, through Major. Shameron is/will do the same.
      Treason just as great as Labours.
      The Tories are NEVER going to leave the EU and give us back our sovereignty, independence and in fact dignity not to mention fish.
      They have sold out to the puppeteers.
      The ‘lib/lab/con’ is there to clearly see and only the propagandists of any of these three identical political scams can whitter away a load of garbage posing as comment – warning us how not voting for one of the hydra will mean another of the hydra will win.
      It doesn’t matter!!!
      They are all the Bl… same.
      We have been blatantly conned over and over.
      I would hope that the B/N/P and UKIP, for the sake of the future of our country, could reach an agreement to stand candidates where they are best placed to win, instead of splitting the vote.
      I refuse to be blackmailed into voting for one pack of traitors because the present pack have sold us out. Treasonous greedy vermin – the lot.
      They Have all!! ALL!! sold us out.
      Got it!

      Like

  59. 318
    Inspector Cyril Blake says:

    I didn’t think for a moment that CMD would ever keep his “cast-iron” promise, because I didn’t see how he could, unless Ireland had voted “no” and Klaus had refused to sign before May next year. At least he’s being realistic and is ‘fessing up now, rather than drag it out until he got elected, only to let us down then, unlike Nu-Liebore who are still lying to us about it. When you stop to think, it’s actually quite brave of CMD to own up about this, neither B.Liar or McDoom have ever owned up to anything.

    However, as I detest the EU in all its forms, even though I have somewhat increased my respect for CMD, I will not vote Conservative now. I did say that he’d worded his “cast-iron” guarantee carefully.

    Like

    • 319
      Inspector Cyril Blake says:

      I’m very miserable about it though. Mrs Blake and I are off out of this miserable Stalinist Eco-City 17 of a Euro region as soon as the kids have finished uni; Canadia or New Zealand sound nice. South Africa or Rhodesia would once have been good too, but they’ve both gone to the dogs since the natives took over. Don’t like America, and Australia is almost like America now, but with funny accents and less water.

      i used to like living in a country called Great Britain once, but that place has gone.

      Like

  60. 322
  61. 331
    Peter Wallace says:

    Has everyone lost their marbles?

    The Lisbon Treaty has been ratified! Therefore a referendum on the UK signing it wouldn’t have any validity.

    We have to face the reality of the situation. Labour have to be brought to account for this. Let’s ensure the fire is on them.

    Like


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Owen Jones says:

We also need Zil lanes.


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