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	<title>Comments on: Bailout : Gordon&#8217;s £1.4 Trillion Fail</title>
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	<description>Parliamentary plots, rumours and conspiracy</description>
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		<title>By: illuminatus</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/04/23/bailout-gordons-14-trillion-fail/#comment-54034</link>
		<dc:creator>illuminatus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.order-order.com/?p=6948#comment-54034</guid>
		<description>Much of what happened in 1975-77 was caused by the inflationary pressures bottled up by three day week, the olil crisis and miner&#039;s strikes. Whose watch were they on? If Treasury calculations given to Dennis Healey had been correct at the time he probably would not have needed to go to the IMF (if you believe him. I do, seeing as he has been fairly honest about much else at the time). Ironically of course, the measures introduced as a result were the first dubious flowerings of the &#039;supply side economics&#039; touted by Friedman and espoused by Keith Jospeh and later Thatcher. So the economic mess that you say Labour caused wpuld have been the result of what would prove to be Conservative policy.  The major problem was that Labour never fully resolved its twin roles of bastions of union representation and party of power. Some future Conservative legilslation would help.  Some of it was reasonable. Some of it wasn&#039;t.

One of Thatcherism&#039;s principal problems was the project to effectively destroy unionisation (how hollow her Francis of Assisi quote seems now, with 30 years of distance to view it). It has plagued industrial relations in this country for decades. Thatcher did not make things any better, merely entrenched already exisiting positions, finally enjoying an ultimately phyrric victory when huge quantities of our industrial base were destroyed; we inherited a manufacturing wasteland. And only now are we starting to feel the side effects, after our economy placed too much emphasis on the UK&#039;s role as a financial service centre. This si something NO government since 1979 has sought to discourage, whatever their colour. All of them are guilty..

It also strikes me that too many people are hoping for foment and civil unrest. Dangerous given that this would be a perfect excuse to further introduce poilicies that would curtail civil liberties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much of what happened in 1975-77 was caused by the inflationary pressures bottled up by three day week, the olil crisis and miner&#8217;s strikes. Whose watch were they on? If Treasury calculations given to Dennis Healey had been correct at the time he probably would not have needed to go to the IMF (if you believe him. I do, seeing as he has been fairly honest about much else at the time). Ironically of course, the measures introduced as a result were the first dubious flowerings of the &#8217;supply side economics&#8217; touted by Friedman and espoused by Keith Jospeh and later Thatcher. So the economic mess that you say Labour caused wpuld have been the result of what would prove to be Conservative policy.  The major problem was that Labour never fully resolved its twin roles of bastions of union representation and party of power. Some future Conservative legilslation would help.  Some of it was reasonable. Some of it wasn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>One of Thatcherism&#8217;s principal problems was the project to effectively destroy unionisation (how hollow her Francis of Assisi quote seems now, with 30 years of distance to view it). It has plagued industrial relations in this country for decades. Thatcher did not make things any better, merely entrenched already exisiting positions, finally enjoying an ultimately phyrric victory when huge quantities of our industrial base were destroyed; we inherited a manufacturing wasteland. And only now are we starting to feel the side effects, after our economy placed too much emphasis on the UK&#8217;s role as a financial service centre. This si something NO government since 1979 has sought to discourage, whatever their colour. All of them are guilty..</p>
<p>It also strikes me that too many people are hoping for foment and civil unrest. Dangerous given that this would be a perfect excuse to further introduce poilicies that would curtail civil liberties.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Bowen</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/04/23/bailout-gordons-14-trillion-fail/#comment-51858</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Bowen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:06:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.order-order.com/?p=6948#comment-51858</guid>
		<description>If G Brown is as clever as we have been told he is, we would not be in the mess we are in at the moment and given that we are in a mess, he would admit that he is a failure, albeit a clever one, and resign.  However, as he will not resign, he is either not so clever, or to be more specific, he is so stupid that he does not understand that we are in a mess, in which case he should resign.  When you have ruined the economy of the country, you have no reason to continue in office, but still he stays.  Remember, he has never faced the electorate in a general election.  The petty bully was too frightened to face the electorate.  Is he Mr Micawber, hoping that something will turn up?  If so, what will turn up will be a massive defeat at the forthcoming general election and his party out of office for generations to come.  That is fair because he has ruined the futures of at least the next two generations.  I hope that those who voted for Labour are proud of themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If G Brown is as clever as we have been told he is, we would not be in the mess we are in at the moment and given that we are in a mess, he would admit that he is a failure, albeit a clever one, and resign.  However, as he will not resign, he is either not so clever, or to be more specific, he is so stupid that he does not understand that we are in a mess, in which case he should resign.  When you have ruined the economy of the country, you have no reason to continue in office, but still he stays.  Remember, he has never faced the electorate in a general election.  The petty bully was too frightened to face the electorate.  Is he Mr Micawber, hoping that something will turn up?  If so, what will turn up will be a massive defeat at the forthcoming general election and his party out of office for generations to come.  That is fair because he has ruined the futures of at least the next two generations.  I hope that those who voted for Labour are proud of themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Wise Buy</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/04/23/bailout-gordons-14-trillion-fail/#comment-50446</link>
		<dc:creator>Wise Buy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 06:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.order-order.com/?p=6948#comment-50446</guid>
		<description>Gold bath plugs, riot shields and batons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gold bath plugs, riot shields and batons.</p>
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		<title>By: Dragon's Den recluse</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/04/23/bailout-gordons-14-trillion-fail/#comment-50444</link>
		<dc:creator>Dragon's Den recluse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 06:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.order-order.com/?p=6948#comment-50444</guid>
		<description>And the Jock banks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the Jock banks.</p>
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		<title>By: Mercian</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/04/23/bailout-gordons-14-trillion-fail/#comment-50408</link>
		<dc:creator>Mercian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.order-order.com/?p=6948#comment-50408</guid>
		<description>This financial crisis is even worse than Labour caused in the 70s and even the 30s, so we know what to expect:

Predictions:

1. There will be civil unrest on a massive scale, including clashes between the BNP and whoever the latest Trotskyite bunch are.

2. After 5-10 years we will still be in massive debt.  The traditional way of resolving this is war, and I mean proper war, not piddly little sideshows like Iraq and Afghanistan (with due respect to the lads serving there).  This time it is likely to be between the UK and USA (with lukewarm European support) against the entire Islamic world.

3. The barter economy will re-emerge, to avoid the massive tax increases that are inevitable sooner or later.  The first person to build a website to incorporate barter will make a fortune.

4. If it is not too late, deprivation, depression and war will once again bring out the true greatness of the British people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This financial crisis is even worse than Labour caused in the 70s and even the 30s, so we know what to expect:</p>
<p>Predictions:</p>
<p>1. There will be civil unrest on a massive scale, including clashes between the BNP and whoever the latest Trotskyite bunch are.</p>
<p>2. After 5-10 years we will still be in massive debt.  The traditional way of resolving this is war, and I mean proper war, not piddly little sideshows like Iraq and Afghanistan (with due respect to the lads serving there).  This time it is likely to be between the UK and USA (with lukewarm European support) against the entire Islamic world.</p>
<p>3. The barter economy will re-emerge, to avoid the massive tax increases that are inevitable sooner or later.  The first person to build a website to incorporate barter will make a fortune.</p>
<p>4. If it is not too late, deprivation, depression and war will once again bring out the true greatness of the British people.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaded63</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/04/23/bailout-gordons-14-trillion-fail/#comment-50379</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaded63</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.order-order.com/?p=6948#comment-50379</guid>
		<description>&#039;The gilt market will revolt sooner or later.   Darling’s fantasy forecasts will be rejected by those of us in the reality-based financial markets.   The numbers are horrific.  Bloomberg’s Andrew MacAskill has totted up the cost of the bailout as £1.4 trillion.  That is over 100% of GDP.&#039;

 Spot on, Guido old chap. Yesterday I commented that I feared the nation would go bankrupt. Today I&#039;m pretty certain that the percentage chance is something in the order of 75%. The remaining 25% of possible doom-avoidance isn&#039;t helped by the strong possibility that the Taliban will fairly soon take over Pakistan, following which we will be facing a type of unavoidable military commitment (due to probable war scenario which we will be unable to avoid getting sucked into) which may well involve conscription of our mostly feckless and benefit-dependent yoof.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;The gilt market will revolt sooner or later.   Darling’s fantasy forecasts will be rejected by those of us in the reality-based financial markets.   The numbers are horrific.  Bloomberg’s Andrew MacAskill has totted up the cost of the bailout as £1.4 trillion.  That is over 100% of GDP.&#8217;</p>
<p> Spot on, Guido old chap. Yesterday I commented that I feared the nation would go bankrupt. Today I&#8217;m pretty certain that the percentage chance is something in the order of 75%. The remaining 25% of possible doom-avoidance isn&#8217;t helped by the strong possibility that the Taliban will fairly soon take over Pakistan, following which we will be facing a type of unavoidable military commitment (due to probable war scenario which we will be unable to avoid getting sucked into) which may well involve conscription of our mostly feckless and benefit-dependent yoof.</p>
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		<title>By: Eddie</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/04/23/bailout-gordons-14-trillion-fail/#comment-50371</link>
		<dc:creator>Eddie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.order-order.com/?p=6948#comment-50371</guid>
		<description>Try iwillbelieveanything.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try iwillbelieveanything.com</p>
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		<title>By: illuminatus</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/04/23/bailout-gordons-14-trillion-fail/#comment-50363</link>
		<dc:creator>illuminatus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.order-order.com/?p=6948#comment-50363</guid>
		<description>At the risk of sounding too sensible and not nearly scaborous enough, I thought I might contribute something at this point

1. dungeekin: nice rewrite. Would be amusing to listen.

2. I consider myself as a left-wing libertarian (yes, it is possible) and I look at current circumstance and see that even though we&#039;re going to be left eating an enormous shit sandwich fo rthe best part of the next decade, I&#039;m not seeing any fantastic alternatives. The potato-faced oracle that is Cameron and Osborne seem remarkably short on ideas; worse, the ideas they are having seem to mirror pretty much was said in thr early 1930&#039;s, which didn&#039;t help then either. We&#039;ve gone through the seismic ideological shifts of Keynsianism and Friedmanism. In the end neither was entirely satisfactory, and we find ourselves here now, unsure of what economic weapons to marshall against horrible circumstances. As a result it appears no one&#039;s got a fucking clue what to do. Take your pick guys, none of the ways suggested are painless. In fact, they are all awful. Deal with it. And possibly organise a banker pogrom.

3. It&#039;s easy to blame Brown for what&#039;s gone on (so I will in part), but neither George nor Dave can throw shit with impunity. Who was there in the Treasury when Lamont had to eat dirt on Black Wednesday? Whose ideology dergulated the markets and laid the conditions for all this chaos. Labour&#039;s crime was not to do this (they didn&#039;t), but they signed up to far too easily to neo-classical supply-side macroeconomics and didn&#039;t make things any better. As a result the culpability is shared across the board. In the end over the last 30 years, the whole political class was effectively down the dog track with our money, betting it on ludicrous &#039;sure things&#039; and pissing it all up the wall. Thanks a bunch.

4. The political class is clueless, existing in an increasingly disconnected sense from those they are supposed to represent. The whole Westminster culture is becoming increasingly hermetic and incestuous. And the hilarious, doom-laden media coverage doesn&#039;t help. A decade ago, Chris Morris was satirisng the media on The Day Today. It wasn&#039;t suposed to be the manual for how to spasticate news coverage that it has become.

5. Too many politicans of all parties are just careerist. The perfect example was Stephen Twigg, who took the Enfield seat held by Michael Portillo in 1997. I know that when I was student back in 1991-92 time, ST was the president of the NUS. In 4-5 intervening years all he&#039;d done was work as a researcher for the Labour Party before getting on the list for  Enfield and winning.  And then, to further his career, he&#039;s locked into the cycle of preferment and arse-licking that comes from being either a thrusting back-bencher or a junior minister, knowing that losing your seat is likely to be a major career blow (q.v. Oona King). So, when can he open his mouth and say the slightest thing off-message? Never, that&#039;s when. The Conservatives are not immune from this either already and things will be even worse if Dave wins the election, as now seems likely. It&#039;s not like I favour a return to rotten boroughs but having MPs like Heseltine or Alan Clark, who could stick a digit up if they disagreed with something are few and far between.

6. Pissed myself laughing at responses to the 50% tax rate, &quot;we risk discouraging the highest earners and the brightest form staying in the UK&quot; Yeah, becasue lots of the financiers and bankers who fell into this category made such a great fucking job of managing the financial system. Where else would they go? Do you think there&#039;s still a level of denial in some places that all this is happening?

There, I feel just a little better now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of sounding too sensible and not nearly scaborous enough, I thought I might contribute something at this point</p>
<p>1. dungeekin: nice rewrite. Would be amusing to listen.</p>
<p>2. I consider myself as a left-wing libertarian (yes, it is possible) and I look at current circumstance and see that even though we&#8217;re going to be left eating an enormous shit sandwich fo rthe best part of the next decade, I&#8217;m not seeing any fantastic alternatives. The potato-faced oracle that is Cameron and Osborne seem remarkably short on ideas; worse, the ideas they are having seem to mirror pretty much was said in thr early 1930&#8217;s, which didn&#8217;t help then either. We&#8217;ve gone through the seismic ideological shifts of Keynsianism and Friedmanism. In the end neither was entirely satisfactory, and we find ourselves here now, unsure of what economic weapons to marshall against horrible circumstances. As a result it appears no one&#8217;s got a fucking clue what to do. Take your pick guys, none of the ways suggested are painless. In fact, they are all awful. Deal with it. And possibly organise a banker pogrom.</p>
<p>3. It&#8217;s easy to blame Brown for what&#8217;s gone on (so I will in part), but neither George nor Dave can throw shit with impunity. Who was there in the Treasury when Lamont had to eat dirt on Black Wednesday? Whose ideology dergulated the markets and laid the conditions for all this chaos. Labour&#8217;s crime was not to do this (they didn&#8217;t), but they signed up to far too easily to neo-classical supply-side macroeconomics and didn&#8217;t make things any better. As a result the culpability is shared across the board. In the end over the last 30 years, the whole political class was effectively down the dog track with our money, betting it on ludicrous &#8217;sure things&#8217; and pissing it all up the wall. Thanks a bunch.</p>
<p>4. The political class is clueless, existing in an increasingly disconnected sense from those they are supposed to represent. The whole Westminster culture is becoming increasingly hermetic and incestuous. And the hilarious, doom-laden media coverage doesn&#8217;t help. A decade ago, Chris Morris was satirisng the media on The Day Today. It wasn&#8217;t suposed to be the manual for how to spasticate news coverage that it has become.</p>
<p>5. Too many politicans of all parties are just careerist. The perfect example was Stephen Twigg, who took the Enfield seat held by Michael Portillo in 1997. I know that when I was student back in 1991-92 time, ST was the president of the NUS. In 4-5 intervening years all he&#8217;d done was work as a researcher for the Labour Party before getting on the list for  Enfield and winning.  And then, to further his career, he&#8217;s locked into the cycle of preferment and arse-licking that comes from being either a thrusting back-bencher or a junior minister, knowing that losing your seat is likely to be a major career blow (q.v. Oona King). So, when can he open his mouth and say the slightest thing off-message? Never, that&#8217;s when. The Conservatives are not immune from this either already and things will be even worse if Dave wins the election, as now seems likely. It&#8217;s not like I favour a return to rotten boroughs but having MPs like Heseltine or Alan Clark, who could stick a digit up if they disagreed with something are few and far between.</p>
<p>6. Pissed myself laughing at responses to the 50% tax rate, &#8220;we risk discouraging the highest earners and the brightest form staying in the UK&#8221; Yeah, becasue lots of the financiers and bankers who fell into this category made such a great fucking job of managing the financial system. Where else would they go? Do you think there&#8217;s still a level of denial in some places that all this is happening?</p>
<p>There, I feel just a little better now.</p>
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		<title>By: Minekiller</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/04/23/bailout-gordons-14-trillion-fail/#comment-50328</link>
		<dc:creator>Minekiller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.order-order.com/?p=6948#comment-50328</guid>
		<description>??? We are screaming for over 50s, they are literate and numerate!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>??? We are screaming for over 50s, they are literate and numerate!!</p>
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		<title>By: Greychatter</title>
		<link>http://order-order.com/2009/04/23/bailout-gordons-14-trillion-fail/#comment-50309</link>
		<dc:creator>Greychatter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:03:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.order-order.com/?p=6948#comment-50309</guid>
		<description>If the Torys put out a manifesto, Gordon with swear it&#039;s His, he will nick any ideas, as has been proved over the years.

Gordon is the most devious Politician ever.

With Great Britain sinking under the waves, He would still be standing on the top of Ben Nevis upto his neck in water swearing He was right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the Torys put out a manifesto, Gordon with swear it&#8217;s His, he will nick any ideas, as has been proved over the years.</p>
<p>Gordon is the most devious Politician ever.</p>
<p>With Great Britain sinking under the waves, He would still be standing on the top of Ben Nevis upto his neck in water swearing He was right.</p>
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